#234805 - 24/09/2004 21:44
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Okay. You can pay my share of taxes that would go towards his prison stay.
And you can be the one to personally look him in the eye and actually administer the execution. Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Dealing out death is easy when you're not the one doing it.
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#234806 - 24/09/2004 21:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Don't worry, I doubt he'll throw his hands up in surrender.
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Brad B.
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#234807 - 24/09/2004 21:47
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I don't personally know anyone in the KKK but I still condemn it.
Speaking of the KKK, I LOVE the fact that their decline came about when they were sued into bankruptcy in civil court by a mother of one of their victims. She even won the land their headquarters was on. That is sweet irony (I'll have to check with Alanis Morrisette to see if that's ironic or not.)
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Brad B.
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#234808 - 24/09/2004 22:10
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Oh, oh! That one's easy. You tossed in the word "human" there, but as this thread has pointed out, often an executer looks at the slain as "subhuman".
The terrorist looks at Westerners as "infidels". The KKK looks at Jews and blacks as "subhumans". NOW and some doctors look at unborn babies as "fetuses". Many people would look at murderers, including Bin Laden, as "subhuman" as well. So, anything less than human does not deserve, in their eyes, treatment befitting a human.
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Brad B.
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#234809 - 24/09/2004 22:11
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Quote:
I have yet to meet one white person that supports the KKK.
Neither have I, to my knowledge.
Again, neither of you live in the South.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234810 - 24/09/2004 23:30
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
And you can be the one to personally look him in the eye and actually administer the execution. Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Dealing out death is easy when you're not the one doing it.
I do believe that all human life is precious, but there are varying degrees of "precious." Osama bin Laden is still a human being, so his life is not something to be carelessly destroyed. However, if aliens came down and told me they were going to destroy the Earth unless I gave them the name of one human being who would be killed and dissected for scientific purposes, I'd tell them to go find bin Laden.
Now, of course it seems silly to try to quantify how precious one life is over another, and most people don't want to have a direct hand in the death of another human being. But not all lives are equally precious, and I am pretty sure there was nobody among the victims of the 4 hijacked planes on 9/11 that deserved to die before bin Laden.
So, to directly answer your question, I could, in good conscience, push the button or pull the lever that delivers lethal injection to Osama bin Laden, then immediately turn to you and tell you that I truly believe human life is precious. That is not at all a contradiction in my mind.
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#234811 - 24/09/2004 23:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Right, and that's what's different about you and me. I couldn't do that.
Yes, I agree that he ordered the killing of thousands of innocent people, and therefore his life is less precious than mine from my point of view. And he probably would have no qualms about killing me in a heartbeat because I'm one of the infidels. But even so, I don't have it in my ability to look in anyone's eyes and take their life.
Something to consider is that our very own president has ordered the killing of large numbers of innocent people, too. Whether his life is also no longer precious is a political question. That's the definition of war, I suppose.
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#234812 - 24/09/2004 23:55
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Something to consider is that our very own president has ordered the killing of large numbers of innocent people, too.
I don't know how you support this. I don't deny that many innocents have lost their lives, but Bush did not order this. It would be far cheaper and less dangerous to our soldiers if we didn't take every measure posible in a time of war to avoid civilian casualties. Yes, one has to admit that any pursuit of war will result in this, but to accuse Bush of ordering the killing of innocents isn't right.
That's the difference. If civilan deaths result from our actions, it's regretable and not the result of our desires. In fact, we take every action short of waving a white flag to ensure it won't happen. Terrorists on the other hand, feed on the innocent. I don't consider attacks against our soldiers to be the act of terrorism, but beheading contractors, blowing up buses and hijacking planes are all deliberate acts intentionally aimed at innocents. They are no colateral damage, they are direct hits. The US military are not terrorists and Bush did not order the death of innocents.
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Brad B.
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#234813 - 25/09/2004 00:05
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I agree that there's a difference between striking a military target with known/predicted civilian collateral damage, and deliberately striking a civilian target as an act of terror.
I'm just saying that the difference in the justifications behind each act are the very definition of politics.
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#234814 - 25/09/2004 00:51
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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You genuinely see a man lose his life, in probably one of the most horrendous ways imaginable.
Yes. Far better, then, to blow them up with smart bombs and cruise missiles, or disembowel them with bayonets, or put 30 rounds into them from a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on a Humvee.
I started to say "We brought war onto these people..." and then realized that I certainly didn't, I objected from the start, so let me rephrase that and say that the United States under the leadership of Geroge Bush brought war onto these people, and not a nice clean sanitary video-game Doom/Quake/Half-Life war, but a real attack with real bullets, bombs, and flame throwers.
So now we're shocked when some of the people to whom we brought our vision of a better life decide to repay the favor?
Oh, I'm disgusted and horrified all right, just not for the same reasons as some of the rest of you.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#234815 - 25/09/2004 14:19
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I believe that human life is precious, but I also believe in human rights. When one human intentionally takes the life of another (outside of a wartime act, self-defense, and other fine line actions), I feel that by trampling on another's rights, they have forfeited their personal rights. In such instances, I believe that the punishment should fit the crime. Now what that punishment is is debatable, but in certain circumstances, I believe the death penalty to be warranted.
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#234816 - 26/09/2004 02:37
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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hmmm, somehow I missed this entire thread. I just wanted to chime in and say this discussion is very thought provoking and some good points are being made.
The one thing I have to add is that while I can find support for the death penalty in logic and philosophy, execution is not something that sits well with my soul. There is something within me that finds that taking the life of a defenseless person absolutely sickening, far more so than the taking the life of an aggressor who is attempting to do violence. By that I mean I could probably take someone's life who was entering my home to kill or do great harm to my family, but if that same person were captured and disarmed I don't see myself being able to throw the switch even knowing what the intentions were.
What makes this video (which I haven’t seen) so gruesome to me is the thought of taking a defenseless person’s life and then making a spectacle of that act.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234817 - 26/09/2004 06:09
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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Quote:
Out of curiosity, are you also Arabic (or of Arabic descent)?
No, I'm of Pakistani descent
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#234818 - 26/09/2004 06:28
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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I must say this is the most intelligent and open discussion that I've seen happening on this subject anywhere on the wwww. Most of the other discussions that I've seen (and the one on a rugby forum that I've taken part in) have been completely knee jerk reactions by totally ignorant people.
I had a discussion last night with some young muslims about a lot of the issues that have been discussed here and although most of them hold the west at least partially responsible for the woes of the Islamic world not one of them had any hesitation in unequivocally condemning the people behind this.
They're all looking for ways to express how they feel though and this is where they fall down, they find it too easy to quote verbatim badly thought out speeches and policies of the self appointed muslim "spokespeople". There are many like myself who are working to open the minds of todays young muslims and I'm confident that in say 10 years time there will be a vibrant, culturally and politically aware generation of muslims that will be able to start to turn the tide of public perceptions in the west.
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#234819 - 26/09/2004 11:24
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
They're all looking for ways to express how they feel though and this is where they fall down, they find it too easy to quote verbatim badly thought out speeches and policies of the self appointed muslim "spokespeople". There are many like myself who are working to open the minds of todays young muslims and I'm confident that in say 10 years time there will be a vibrant, culturally and politically aware generation of muslims that will be able to start to turn the tide of public perceptions in the west.
This is probably the most uplifting thing I've read in months. Thank you for posting it. The Muslim and Arabic culture is so rich and has so much to offer the world. I'm lucky enough to be exposed to it because of the community that I live in, and it pains me that for so many people, the only exposure they have to this part of the world is when there is an unspeakable act. I too am confident that in 10 years time or sooner, there will be an overwhelming force to counteract the bad stereotypes there are out there today (that are not actively being countered).
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Brad B.
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#234821 - 26/09/2004 15:10
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Thanks Guys.
After having a few days to reflect on what I saw, I can see how important it is that open discussions like this are allowed to take place. It's a shame it doesn't happen in real life politics!
I don't think it was the fact a man had lost his life I found so shocking, but the way the end of his life has been used (in our media also) in such a cold manor. I can't see how anyone one human can hate another or believe in something so strongly that drives them to do this kind of thing. The image of his head being hacked off and placed ontop of his own body will stay with me until the moment I die, I fail to see how either side could ever justify this kind of act.
Many many people have lost their lives so far in this "war" but these are different. This is the sort of thing that will swing the whole issue one way or the other. They are powerful images, and can stir powerful emotions among people, as I have found out. I can't help thinking about what would happen if public opinion shifted either way, could this lead to WW3???
I really really hope it doesn't!
Cris.
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#234822 - 29/09/2004 03:24
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
[...]So now we're shocked when some of the people to whom we brought our vision of a better life decide to repay the favor?
Oh, I'm disgusted and horrified all right, just not for the same reasons as some of the rest of you.
I'm with you on this one. I haven't seen the beheading video, but I've made it a point to look at photos and other videos that haven't been sanitized for the American public by the Administration/media collusion. I'm disgusted by what's being done in the name of "peace" and "democracy" by a country led by a self-professed "Christian".
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#234823 - 29/09/2004 07:13
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: canuckInOR]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Administration/media collusion
wow, i've always thought that the administration and the general mass media were on opposite sides, and would love to spite one another at every opportunity.
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#234824 - 29/09/2004 09:35
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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In general, does the majority of the Muslim population denounce what the radical extremists did? Or do they just watch idly and silently think they were justified? Note I'm not saying that's actually the case, I'm genuinely posing it as a question.
Most people that I have spoken with here seem to be numb to it. I saw on the local news a car blown to shreds and then a happy child after wards. I ask my roommate about it and he says it was a funeral for the Martyr. I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children. I asked how it affected him, and he said “I find it disgusting, but it happens every day.”
So I guess the prevailing thought is “What am I going to do about it?”.
As far as the war is concerned, most people I talk to here (and there are Muslims from all over the world here) are convinced that the US will not stop with Iraq. The joke is that any Arab nation without oil is safe.
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former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234825 - 29/09/2004 12:35
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children.
This is one of the (sad) causes of such problems - Innocent children being indoctinated in this way. The truth is that they are just mimicing their parents'/elders' reactions to the events, but in doing so are learning the same traits and beliefs. Who was it that said, "Give me a child before the age of 7..."? Damn - can't even remember the quote correctly to google.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#234826 - 29/09/2004 12:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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Quote:
I saw on the local news a car blown to shreds and then a happy child after wards. I ask my roommate about it and he says it was a funeral for the Martyr. I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children.
Where and what was the incident, and where are you?
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#234827 - 30/09/2004 06:18
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: image]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Administration/media collusion
wow, i've always thought that the administration and the general mass media were on opposite sides, and would love to spite one another at every opportunity.
Generally, that's been the case in the past, and it's still the case outside the US. However, the Bush administration has pretty much cowed any significant media opposition into silence with the 'dissent is UnPatriotic' thing. Combine that with the fact that the majority of the major news outlets (if not all) are owned by mega-corporations which have benefited significantly from the administrations pro-corporation stance, and relaxed FCC rules on media outlet ownership (not to mention that the majority of those mega-corps are owned by Republican supporters). That doesn't even take into account Bush's scripted 'meeting with the press' sessions, either!
The only decent places to get American political news are from non-American sources.
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#234828 - 30/09/2004 13:12
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Where and what was the incident, and where are you?
At the moment I am in the capital of Tunisia. The event took place in Iraq. Most of the news that I get here is centered on Iraq. Every evening there is a new video of a humvee
My roommate and I were talking and came to an impasse on the following point.
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
These organizations send these videos directly to the news stations they know will play them. The organizations that air these videos are for profit organizations. What do these two facts together mean? I’m not sure, but I pretty sure that it’s the question that I want answer.
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former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234829 - 30/09/2004 13:26
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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Quote:
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
I really can't say, there has been plenty of coverage of Mr Bigley in the UK and the papers were full of pictures of dead kids after Beslan
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#234830 - 30/09/2004 13:32
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Perhaps I am failing to see the forest for the trees in this particular matter. I really feel like there is no reason for these videos to be shown. There simply cannot be enough people that want to see these to justify showing every single one.
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former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234831 - 30/09/2004 13:36
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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Quote:
Perhaps I am failing to see the forest for the trees in this particular matter. I really feel like there is no reason for these videos to be shown.
I'd agree with you but I think we must be in the minority. I haven't watched TV news for a few weeks now
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#234834 - 30/10/2004 01:57
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
My roommate and I were talking and came to an impasse on the following point.
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
Hey, how are things going there in Tunisia? Seriously.
I dredged this thread back up on the occasion of Bin Laden's most recent video. I was frustrated in my attempt to find a complete transcript, but this Reuters report seemed to capture the gist.
As I read it, I was struck by the plain-spoken, deliberate nature of U/OBL's Halloween message.
My anxieties about this situation are still influenced, for better or worse, by the writings of "Anonymous" (Mike Scheuer) in Imperial Hubris .
Scheuer spends a lot of time trying to disabuse his readers of the notion of OBL and Company as wild-eyed madmen. We may not agree, but he lays out a much more rational, internally consistent basis for Al Quaeda's terrorrist actions. He could almost say "Hey, you think flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper is *easy*?" "Do you think sawing off somebody's head in person (not from 18,000 feet) feet is *easy*?" From "Mike"'s point of viw, the theatrical carnage is a deliberately considered set of actions committed by people who are (in *their* universe) acting to defend their faith from the new crusaders. No choice. The 19 martyrs of 9/11 had to do it.
Mike posits that the West has deluded itself with the notion that the majority of Muslims just want to get along with -- live in peace with -- the non-Muslim Western world, and that OBL and troupe enjoy more support from the "Man-in-the-street" in Cairo, Tunis, Jakarta, Islamabad than we would like to imagine.
While Mike is extremely critical of Bush's mistaken f*ckup in Iraq, his prescriptions are unlikely to bring comfort to any Kucinich Democrats -- they are something not too far from "Well, dang, now that we have stuck our foot in it, we need to really kill 'em!"
Anyhow, any of that Bush*t about "They hate us because of who we are!" stuff is just that. Bush*t.
So, how's things there? Had tea with your censor lately? I hear that really helps!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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