#234250 - 22/09/2004 00:39
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote: I'm voting for Kerry this year, and unlike others, I won't be holding my nose. While I don't think Kerry is the best man in America for the job (I was hoping Wesley Clark would win the nomination) I think he's a much smarter, decisive, and determined leader than he's been given credit for.
I'll be holding my nose not so much over Kerry, who I don't actively dislike (and his wife is *hot*), but over the Democrats A) willingness to nominate someone who voted for the Iraq War B) focus on "electability" while ignoring principals and C) their stupid inability to see the Swift Boat Veterans for Rove coming. Kerry was the "safe" choice.
I wish Wes Clark was the candidate ...for Vice President. The Kerry campaign may accidentally pull a miracle out of some hat -- a lot of bad juju can happen in October, the traditional month of surprises -- but I think Dean/Clark or even Edwards/Clark would have been in a better position right now. If Bush wins, history will show that began when the Clark campaign took aim at Dean in Iowa. IMHO.
Quote: I just think he's run an atrocious campaign, not uncommon for someone's first time around, and especially against an incumbent in such a divided voting base. Kerry has had his work cut out for him, and has not risen to the challenge of defeating the Republican attack machine that's so good at dividing the voters and discrediting the opposition. Kerry and his people, I'm afraid, are no good at playing dirty politics.
Dirty politics aside, it would help if Kerry had a solid leg to stand on. On the #1 issue of the day, he has effectively neutered himself.
Quote: CBS deserves to lose every viewer they have for running with this story. The Democrats, to their credit, didn't latch onto it too strongly, not nearly as strongly as the Bush people latched onto the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth." But they also have done a terrible job of responding to those attacks, and an even worse job of proving that the Bush campaign has nothing else to stand for except attacking Kerry's Vietnam service. (And if you think Rove isn't attached to those Swift Boat clowns, I've got a bridge to sell you.)
Isn't it tough? There are times I want the Dems to be more ruthless, but then they would be just like...them. Maybe they could just be a little smarter? A little more gumption? The last Democrat I really cared about was George McGovern. And what did we get?
Quote: I think we'll get a much better picture for who's best to lead this country. I have no question that Kerry has the better ideas, and the wherewithal to execute them... Unfortunately, I don't have nearly as much faith in his ability to win an election in a voting base that's so brainwashed by the best dirty politicians in America.
On some level, some of us look forward to the debates, but I don't know that the tightly controlled format will be of benefit to Kerry. Bush has surprised before in debates for governor of Texas. He may not be very bright, but he can get his lines right in controlled circumstances.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234251 - 22/09/2004 00:55
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote: Could win? Only if all of these peices that he would have no control over fall into place.
You seem to be basing this assumption of complexity on the notion that somehow the gambit *must* be made to work. That is not so. If you accept the notion that what you try to throw at the wall may not stick, then the conspiratorial maneuver I have suggested (anonymously supplied memos) is completely fire-and-forget. All you need is a word processor or typewriter and some stamps. No phone calls. No meeting minutes. No risk. If it sticks, it sticks. If not, move on.
Quote: No-lose? Are you serious? Him being exposed in such a fraud would be about as bad as Watergate.
The risk of exposure? Negligible. And if some David Brock type comes forward on November 3rd, who cares? Page three. People will blame Rove the way they blame him for McCain's black baby, but who will drag him into court? Our esteemed AG? You see, all of those special prosecutors that dogged the likes of Bill Clinton? Why, they have vanished! A Republican magic trick!
No lose, could win. Just remember to wear rubber cloves when closing the envelope.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234252 - 22/09/2004 01:00
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote: It's like a sacrifice bunt that got dropped by the pitcher and thrown over the first baseman's head into the stands.
Bitt, what imagery. Kerry needs to hook up with you!
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234253 - 22/09/2004 03:47
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote: Also, I think it's the very things that Bush stands for that generate so much anger towards him, so it's hard to say he doesn't stand for anything.
True enough. Here's about all I can see Bush standing for: cronyism, warmongering, corporatism, ignorance, fear, distortion, self-righteousness, being above the law, etc.
Quote: I can't stomach Kerry only because he sticks his finger in the wind and votes
Have you actually taken an honest look at his congressional record, or are you just parroting the standard party line? For a "flip-flopper", he's actually remarkably consistent. His flip-flops, from what I've read, are because he'll vote for something, but in the next round of hearings, various riders and other alterations to the bill get made, transforming what he originally voted for into something that he's no longer willing to support.
That's not to say he never makes the occasional gaffe -- far from it. But IMHO, he's no worse than Bush is in terms of flip-flops.
Quote: or makes speeches based on what he think people will like on that given day.
Yeah, true enough, but then, it's a rare politician that *doesn't*.
Quote: That's not leadership by any stretch. That's pandering.
To me, it seems like a good trait to have in a person that's elected by the people, for the people. (Though, I suppose the US election system doesn't really work like that.) The ability to say "I was mistaken before, but I'm going to try to set things right" takes a hell of a lot more in a leader than "stay the course" does. Bush doesn't seem like a good leader. Rather, he seems like the type of person that will throw a temper-tantrum if he doesn't get his way. That's not a leader, that's a bully. The worst this nation can do is re-elect a man who's so egotistical that he thinks he's never wrong, that honestly can't come up with a single mistake he's made, and learned something from. I prize honesty more than I prize bullheadedness.
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#234254 - 22/09/2004 05:31
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote: But IMHO, he's no worse than Bush is in terms of flip-flops.
I fully agree with this, especially with statements like this:
"I don't think our troops should be used for nation building" "If we go around the world saying we do it this way so should you, they will see us as an arrogant nation and resent us"
Who said the above? Governor George W. Bush.
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#234255 - 22/09/2004 12:25
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Damn it, where are all our conservative friends to help balance out the discussion? Brad can't carry the entire load for you right-wing guys! Don't you fellas get involved in these debates anymore?
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#234256 - 22/09/2004 14:13
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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To be honest, I only got into this conversation because it seemed innocent enough at first. I've been thinking of posting my own thread for several months about how sick I am of all the hatred in Off Topic. I cringe everytime I click on Off Topic and usually skip it all together. The hate is 10 times worse than the stuff that turned me away from the Republican party during Clinton's stay in office. I've even IM'd a few members of this BBS regarding the fact that I'd like to get involved in some intelligent debate but that I'm afraid of alienating myself to members who hate Bush. I actually thought for a few days that genexia wasn't replying to my inquirey for a memory upgrade on my player because of some of the conservative posts I've made in the past. I realize that I have no reason to think that, but I just hate the fact that it even went through my mind.
It'd be interesting to discuss views and theories on relavant topics instead of tossing around the word liar or repeating whatever conspiracies are heard on right-wing and left-wing media. I'm well aware this would be the exception. Don't get me wrong, for the most part, the Bush haters here do a decent job of keeping themselves from frothing at the mouth. But I doubt it will stop after November. Either Bush will win and the Democrats will continue to pound him while seeking an impeachment or Kerry will win and once the reality of that sinks in, people will have to remind themselves how much they hated Bush so they don't feel so bad.
I admit that it's no fun getting piled on here, but I really don't expect anyone to jump in. Besides, the technology community tends to be pretty "progressive" anyway.
That being said, it was Jim's comment that Heinz Kerry was hot that truely made me realize that some of you can not be reasoned with.
Attachments
233608-teresaheinzkerry.jpg (215 downloads)
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Brad B.
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#234257 - 22/09/2004 15:13
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote: To be honest, I only got into this conversation because it seemed innocent enough at first.
I think this conversatoin was, is, and will continue to be very innocent. I wasn't saying that we need more conservatives to come to your rescue. I was saying it would be a more fun debate with more shades of conservative opinion mixed in.
Quote: The hate is 10 times worse than the stuff that turned me away from the Republican party during Clinton's stay in office.
Well, I start with the theory that the amount of "hate" directed towards a politician should be proportional to the seriousness of the mistake they made. And if you ask me, sending our boys to die in a war that has nothing to do with "winning the war on terror" (not to mention spending an absurd amount of money on said war) is WAY more than 10 times worse than Clinton cheating on his wife. One mistake has killed more than a thousand American soldiers, squandered the US's good will in the international community, and thrown gasoline on the raging wildfire that is the middle east region. The other mistake, at the most, strained a single marriage with infidelity, something Americans everywhere are doing on their own. I'll take one strained marriage over a thousand deaths (and untold future consequences) any day.
Quote: I admit that it's no fun getting piled on here
I've said this to you before, but it bears repeating. There is definitely hatred towards Bush here, but I don't think anyone here hates anyone with a conservative ideology. If anyone does truly hate all conservatives, then they're not reasonable people and would probaby have exposed themselves as idiots by now. Since that hasn't happened, I'm of the opinion that all of these debates have been strictly about the issues, and what's best for America (and, depending on the discussion, the world in general.) The hate that you're seeing is hate directed towards the current administration, and if you're taking that hate personally, I don't know how to change your mind. But from my perspective, I don't see anyone here who thinks any less of YOU because of YOUR beliefs.
As for Teresa, individual interpretations of "attractive" differ, but the woman is 65. I think any man in his right mind would hope and pray that his wife looks as good as she does at 65 (with the obvious exception of your carefully-chosen picture.)
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#234258 - 22/09/2004 17:21
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote: To be honest, I only got into this conversation because it seemed innocent enough at first. I've been thinking of posting my own thread for several months about how sick I am of all the hatred in Off Topic. I cringe everytime I click on Off Topic and usually skip it all together. The hate is 10 times worse than the stuff that turned me away from the Republican party during Clinton's stay in office.
Well, no Clinton-lover, I, but, as Tony so eloquently pointed out, I think there are more substantive reasons to be *really* pissed at Bush (YMMV!). You have to understand, I live in one of those Blue states -- Kerry bumperstickers everywhere -- where my vote is unlikely to make a difference and where anti-Bush rants are likely to result in boring, nodding, sad agreement. Here in Off-Topic, you can have heated (warm?) discussions with people from battleground states (Michigan?) and *even* Red states (Texas!) Hate? Well, I am loathe to disguise my loathing for the current occupant of the White House and his posse. I mean, what would be the point of sugar-coating the degree of disgust I truly feel? Folks can always go "Hogan. Blech!" and skip it. But if you *do* read it, I wouldn't want you to come away with any illusions about how I really feel.
Quote: It'd be interesting to discuss views and theories on relavant topics instead of tossing around the word liar or repeating whatever conspiracies are heard on right-wing and left-wing media.
Well, shucks, I came up with that Burkett conspiracy all on my own! What's a fellow gotta do to get some credit as a conspiracy theorist around here????
Quote: Don't get me wrong, for the most part, the Bush haters here do a decent job of keeping themselves from frothing at the mouth. But I doubt it will stop after November. Either Bush will win and the Democrats will continue to pound him while seeking an impeachment or Kerry will win and once the reality of that sinks in, people will have to remind themselves how much they hated Bush so they don't feel so bad.
Hmmm, I'm feeling like it is most important to froth at the mouth before November 2nd. A Kerry win? I don't expect things to be much better, but I could take some consolation from knowing that the worst crowd had been ousted as they deserve. A Bush win? Depression. The usefulness of further frothing? Not much. Impeachment? Not bloody likely. Republican Congress, Supreme Court, AG and no Special Prosecutor? Shrub would have to shoot his whole cabinet while driving drunk.
Quote: I admit that it's no fun getting piled on here, but I really don't expect anyone to jump in. Besides, the technology community tends to be pretty "progressive" anyway.
I do join Tony in wondering where minority BBS conservatives have gone, but I acknowledge that it is a tough row to hoe. If somebody at this point wants to start a post about either A) Why the War in Iraq is a Good Idea or B) What Bush Really Stands For (beyond bein' agin' gay marriage!) I am interested to read it.
I am afraid, though, that canuckinLA's concise summary fairly drips with truth:
Quote: Here's about all I can see Bush standing for: cronyism, warmongering, corporatism, ignorance, fear, distortion, self-righteousness, being above the law, etc.
I had to repeat it. Well put.
Lastly, on the subject of Teresa Heinz Kerry....I think your wink and picture selection acknowledged that I was being a *little* tongue-in-cheek, but not too. The closer I creep to 65, the better she looks! Maybe it is the plastic surgery or the billions!
Seriously, what I meant by "hot" was (aside from sex appeal) was....I only listened to small bits of the Democratic convention on radio and managed by accident to see part of her speech on TV. I missed Barack Obama (supposed to be good) and heard part of Sharpton's replayed on radio (quite stirring if you can put Tawana Brawley out of your mind!), but Teresa managed, in my mind, to come across as the person with the least cliche and the most zing. She was a pleasure to watch. I know she's worth billiions and she isn't "just like us". The Heinz empire may have oppressed farm workers for all I know, but I never heard of a tanker full of ketchup despoiling the coast of Alaska.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234259 - 22/09/2004 23:10
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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You guys know that this isn't real right? I like balistic airports though.
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Brad B.
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#234260 - 23/09/2004 00:19
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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"He has attempted to purchase seven million hydrogen powered doctors and the western wall of the Pentagon."
Hysterical
But why, oh why, can't he pronounce "noo clee ar" correctly?
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Bitt Faulk
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#234261 - 23/09/2004 09:28
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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It's "nuc you ler". Duh.
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Brad B.
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#234263 - 23/09/2004 12:58
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote: I'm just tired of reading the Anti-Bush sentiment that is constantly put forth as an obvious truth, full well knowing that there are those here who disagree with the premise.
I've seen noobdy putting their opinions out as an "obvious truth." In a debate like this, everything we say is, by definition, our own opinion. In many of these discussions, I've had my own understanding of the truth changed based on information and opinions others have put forth. Sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in more fundamental ways. If I thought I already knew the real truth about everything, I wouldn't bother getting involved in any type of political discourse at all.
Of course, nobody goes into a debate thinking they're wrong. And at times, we all find actual facts, evidence, which can support our position. But unless those things are indeed fact, I don't think they're portrayed as such.
Quote: It just seems having an objective debate is not really feasible and attempting one is not very constructive.
I'm really sorry you guys feel that way.
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#234264 - 23/09/2004 13:46
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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I can say one thing. If Bush does win, I don't think I'm going to leave my apartment for a few days. There are going to be a few million people where I live that are going to be very unhappy. And they all know I'm American.
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former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234265 - 24/09/2004 00:10
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I'm afraid of alienating myself to members who hate BushBrad, that just isn't going to happen here. I don't know whether you realize it, but you are quite highly thought of on this bbs. While I can't speak for everyone, I can say that while I disagree strongly with your [political] opinions, I enjoy the hell out of reading them, thinking about them, and occasionally responding to them. What a dull place this bbs would be if everybody agreed with everybody else about everything! Myself, I (and I suspect the great majority of bbs members) don't feel that you are in any way an unworthy or inferior person just because your opinion differs from mine. Even if your opinion is ridiculous, uninformed, and likely to lead to the end of civilization as we know it. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) Please keep up the good work, and don't let all us commie-pinko-left-wing-liberals put you down without a fight! tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#234266 - 24/09/2004 00:17
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Thanks man, that really means a lot. And I don't think you're pinko at all. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) Let me regroup and respond in a bit... I'm not online during the day anymore, so that makes it hard.
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Brad B.
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#234267 - 24/09/2004 00:58
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: I've seen noobdy putting their opinions out as an "obvious truth." In a debate like this, everything we say is, by definition, our own opinion. In many of these discussions, I've had my own understanding of the truth changed based on information and opinions others have put forth. Sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in more fundamental ways. If I thought I already knew the real truth about everything, I wouldn't bother getting involved in any type of political discourse at all.
On re-reading my post I didn't quite come across the way I meant to. I actually had a much longer post that I edited down to try and avoid getting into any actual disagreement over my examples.
In the end, I don't think my tentative and weak support for Bush is really going to counter the outright hatred I see for Bush here. I truly don't believe he is deserving of the hatred you guys heap upon him- I see him as a man who's made some right choices and some wrong ones and at his level there are drastic consequences for both.
But since you seem to want my thoughts (and these are mostly just limited to Iraq):
I do believe we should have gone into Iraq. I don't think Bush handled the situation well with regards to the rest of the world- I feel his administration was disrespectful. I think Bush should have been more responsible with the information he used to support the war. I think Bush should have been clearer with regards to his reasons for the war. I don't think he should have used 9/11 as a justification for the war. I do think that war has consequences and that as a strong nation it is our responsibility to pay those if it will ultimately lead to the freedom of others.
Having said all of this (more negatives than positives), in general I agree with Bush's motives and ideology, I just don't agree with many of the ways that he's approached those things. It's so difficult to tell the truth through all the spin, but I truly believe Bush is a good man who has made some mistakes. And those mistakes were not "getting people killed" as is so often asserted, those deaths were to free an oppressed people and prevent those who would destroy us from gaining the ability to do so. His mistakes, however, have had the drastic effect of making our country look bad and for causing our own citizens to distrust him.
And if we decide to discuss this further just know that I'm working at a site this week where I cannot post to the BBS.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234268 - 24/09/2004 01:38
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Do you really think that those people are better off now or will be so anytime in the next, say, dozen years? Their circumstances have certainly changed, but I can't say that one is really much better than the other.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234269 - 24/09/2004 03:11
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote: I think Bush should have been clearer with regards to his reasons for the war. [...] in general I agree with Bush's motives and ideology
This is the only part of your post that doesn't make sense to me: how can anyone agree with Bush's motives and ideology, when Bush hasn't made it clear what those motives and ideology are?
Quote: I truly believe Bush is a good man who has made some mistakes
Mistakes, I can put up with. I honestly don't think Bush is evil, either. I think he's naive, petulant, has a competitive streak a mile long, and as a result, is easily manipulated by his staff as a result. I think he's in waaaay over his head.
He has a history of business failures, all of which he was bailed out of, and even in his involvement with his ballclub, he was kept at arms reach by his partners. His personal life was a mess, which he was bailed out of. And now, even though you think the war is justified, you think he's made more mistakes than he has done right. To me, that all just stacks up to something far more serious than "some mistakes".
I'm sure he's a very personable fellow, and that I'd like him if we had met before he got into politics. Regardless of good, or not good, however, when one's pattern of choices tends to have more negatives, than positives, especially at the level where the outcome of those choices can have disastrous, and far reaching consequences, I think it's important to ask: is this the right person to lead the country?
That, alone, would keep me from voting for the guy, and I haven't even begun to touch on the stuff that *really* gets under my skin about the administration.
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#234270 - 24/09/2004 09:46
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: Do you really think that those people are better off now or will be so anytime in the next, say, dozen years? Their circumstances have certainly changed, but I can't say that one is really much better than the other.
I do, but I'm not over there so who am I to say? Still, I think I'd rather be in a war torn country than living under an opressive regime. And though I doubt Iraq will experience the kind of freedom we have here in any kind of near future, I think the violence will eventually lessen and people will no longer live in fear of genocide and the other evils Sadam did to them.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234271 - 24/09/2004 10:10
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: This is the only part of your post that doesn't make sense to me: how can anyone agree with Bush's motives and ideology, when Bush hasn't made it clear what those motives and ideology are?
I think it's pretty clear that Bush comes from a position of conservative faith. I see in many cases how his faith drives his decisions, so I can say with some amount of confidence that our sense of morality comes from the same source. Politically I find myself somewhat to the left of Bush and most Republicans (I don't support the gay marriage ammendment, I don't think their should be public prayer in school, etc.), but because we share similar belief systems Bush's views are closer to mine than Kerry or just about any other Democrat. Not that a person with similar faith can't be a Democrat, but usually they choose not to be because many of the party's ideals are just not consistend with our belief system. I've said before that I don't feel well represented by these candidates, and that's why I'm so frustrated by the system at the moment. But as far as Bush the man goes (not Bush the politican), I'm pretty sure he and I would find very similar ideals as to where we want this country to go. I just have some different ideas when it comes to how those ideas can affect policy.
As to the rest of your post, all I can say is that you have good points but our options are really limited here. My choices are for either Bush, with whom I agree standpoint of goals and ideals but who has not impressed me with his actions, or Kerry who has largely remained undefined as far as goals go. And when he does define his beliefs and what drives him they always contrary to mine.
I should note that one allegation that is made over and over again that really bugs me is how Republicans say they want to spend less but then end up spending more. This bugs me because it's true and that is truly frustrating. I do think we ought to spend less in taxes and on government programs like the Republicans say, but they don't seem to know how to follow through on that. At least Democratic leaders have some integrity on this point by not claming the can do more with less.
So this is all what I meant by being a weak supporter of Bush. He's the better choice for me, but he certainly isn't the perfect person to represent me in office. Of course, there's no way that person could ever be elected so someone like Bush is probably the best shot I get. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234272 - 24/09/2004 19:12
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: I think it's pretty clear that Bush comes from a position of conservative faith.
I think that we're all aware by now that I'm pretty close to being anti-religious, so I think you should take this as the viewpoint of an outsider looking in:
I am positive that Bush's faith is a fraud. I don't think that he's any more Christian than Anton Lavey. I truly believe that he is one hundred percent pandering to the conservative Christian masses. That is, he talks the talk, but does not walk the walk.
Consider this for a minute. Then consider if you'd still vote for him if he did not claim to be Christian, or make any pretense about it, but made the same presidential decisions. It sounds to me as if you're choosing him simply because he claims to have the same religion you do. Now, I don't believe that that's enough of a reason to begin with. After all, I'm sure David Duke would claim the same thing. But, regardless of whether or not I feel that a candidate's religion is a good selection criterion, it definitely becomes bad when it's a lie intended solely to get you to choose him.
I'd appreciate it if you'd think about this, because I'm sure many of us believe that Bush's faith really is fraudulent. I'd consider my wife to be quite a religious person (albeit not in the same vein as yours) and she's even more convinced than I am that Bush is a poseur.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234273 - 24/09/2004 20:19
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31592
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I find that a very interesting and thought-provoking opinion, Bitt.
I always just assumed that Bush was a typical Fundie. But I honestly never gave it much thought beyond that. I'm curious for more details as to what you've seen about him that makes you carry that opinion.
I mean, there's one school of thought which says all politicians are corrupt (or at least the successful ones must be in order to be successful), and that kind of corruption is not truly Christian. There's also the school of thought that says people can do bad things, or be deluded or power-mad, all in the name of God, because they either don't understand the scripture or they twist its meaning to serve their ends. I would buy all of that in relation to Bush.
But I think you're saying something beyond that. I think you're trying to say that Bush genuinely doesn't believe in God or the Bible, not one bit, and that everything related he says is specific, premeditated deception. I think that's a very extraordinary claim, so I'd be very interested in any details you could provide regarding that.
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#234274 - 24/09/2004 21:47
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Ummm. The only thing I can say to you is to live in the South for your whole life. You'll get to see the difference.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234275 - 24/09/2004 22:08
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Actually, let me expand on that a little.
There are, I'm sure, many people everywhere, including the South, that are genuine Christian people who do nice things for others because they feel that it's the right thing to do. To me, this is a true Christian attitude, and the act of proselytizing is secondary at best.
But there are way too many people, and they are the really vocal ones, for whom Christianity is a way to feel superior. They're "better" Christians than you are. Why aren't you going to church? Can't you see that you're living in sin? Christian-owned plumbing. Truth-Fish-eats-Darwin-Fish stickers. These people, the ones that make sure you know that they're Christian, their faith is, at best, secondary to feeling superior. While I'm sure that they're in the minority, it's a very common attitude and it sure doesn't feel like a minority. (BTW, no one I can think of on this board seems to have this attitude.)
I was not always the religious outsider I portray myself as now. I went to church virtually every week for the first sixteen or so years of my life. Not really feeling like there was anything there for me was the reason I left, but this overly prevalent attitude is the reason I grew to detest organized religion.
Anyway, George W. Bush displays this attitude in spades. Except that he seldom seems to actually speak of Christianity, and when he does, it seems very superficial.
I don't really have any solid evidence. It's just a very strong intuitive feeling based on prior experience.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234276 - 24/09/2004 22:17
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote: These people, the ones that make sure you know that they're Christian, their faith is, at best, secondary to feeling superior.
That comment, and other about Americans who support Bush as being "brainwashed" implying that they are of weak mind is why most conservatives view many liberals as elitists. We feel that liberals view the majority of Americans or Christians as being inferior to them. Implying that someone with a sticker on their car claiming their faith is "at best, secondary to feeling superior" is arrogant and offensive. That's the definition of prejudice. Proud does not equal arrogant. Otherwise, everyone with any sticker, be it a political sticker or a band sticker would be the same. You've seem to have extended this view toward Bush, even, as you admit, you have no evidence other than your distain for religion.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (24/09/2004 22:18)
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Brad B.
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#234277 - 24/09/2004 22:33
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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No. You've missed my point. There are also, I'm sure, many people who have jesus fish on their cars who are reasonable people, too. Jesus fish are a symptom. But just because you have a cough doesn't mean you have tuberculosis. Also, I disdain organized religion, but I don't necessarily detest religious people, even if they choose to be so in an organized fashion.
Regardless, that's all beside the point, as my claim is that George W. Bush is not religious. I certainly don't believe that about Jon or Jeff or Michael. I do believe that they may be being duped. That doesn't necessarily mean that they would vote otherwise, but it certainly seems to cement it.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234278 - 25/09/2004 01:08
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Anton LaVey
A bit of clarification in case (like myself) people are unfamiliar with the reference...
Anton Szandor LaVey (1930-1997), along with Charles Manson, Timothy Leary, and other messianic pop gurus, was a notorious figure of the 1960s' subculture of social experiment. As the flamboyant High Priest of the Church of Satan and the author of the Satanic Bible, he served as an ideal bogeyman for the sensation-seeking American media of that tumultuous period.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#234279 - 25/09/2004 01:28
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
That comment, and other about Americans who support Bush as being "brainwashed" implying that they are of weak mind is why most conservatives view many liberals as elitists. We feel that liberals view the majority of Americans or Christians as being inferior to them.
It's possible to be Christian and liberal. The "me first" attitude that some (not even many) conservatives, some of them self-professed Christians, have, isn't nearly Christian. But, realistically, everyone's different, and there are certainly people who I know will vote for Bush who I respect, and I respect their choice to do so. I wish they wouldn't, but there are very, very few people who I look down on it for it, and those people only because their statements are out of line with their actions.
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