#230849 - 16/08/2004 21:47
Late night diatribe
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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I've just been to see "Shaun of the Dead", an immensly hilarious (well, I think so) film about zombies going on the rampage in Wandsworth in London. I was rolling about in my seat, and I suspect the rather straight-faced Dutch audience in there at the same time was beginning to wonder if they had made a mistake buying tickets for a showing with the Madman in row 5. Just before the film started, up popped one of these patronising, threatening messages about copyright and so forth that have started appearing recently. (Loosely translated) "Enjoy and support creativity - Don't Steal it!" Sheee ite. For some reason I sat there in the cinema as if I'd been struck by lightning. It was as if that message had been aimed, in all it's patronisation, directly at me. Well, I'm so 3ffing sorry, Mr. 3ffing MPAA and Mr. 3ffing RIAA and all the rest of you Better-than-Thou smug baskets who are slowly taking control of the contents of my underpants, but I am feeling just a tad, yes merely a TAD hacked off about your message, directed specifically at me. In fact, I'm a little bit upset, to tell you the truth. Before the film has even started, I'm having legalese that has not been tested or can even be shown to be valid under international law shoved up my nose. In fact I'm being bullied and threatened after having paid to come into the theatre with heavy, nefarious threats to my health and welfare, and that of my first-born son. In fact, if I read between the lines, I am a criminal in waiting. All my life, I have paid up front. All my life, I have stuck to the rules. Stuck to the speed limits (and watched morons go past me at 100+ and curse the Poliss for never being there, except when I try to do 100+ and instantly get a ticket). All my life, I have done what people have told me what I should do for my own good. All my life, I have put considerations for everyone else before my own needs. So what have I got? I have nothing: I am losing my kids, I have been hammered through a vicious divorce, I have big debts, a crappy car that is falling apart, and I can't even live in my own house. I have to pay ridiculous prices to watch a film: pay excessive taxes for little return: my teeth are rotting in my head, and my once prize-winning body is turning into sloppy, beer-gutted jelly. I have always paid my dues, and I am being acused (don't shake your head here) of not having done so, and in fact I am robbing the poor artists. I am taking the money out of their mouths, and those of their starving children. I have been buying music for over 30 years. I have been buying movies since it has been possible to do so, somewhere over the last 20 years. I hesitate to record: if I do, I either wipe it afterwards or go out and buy the original. I feel guilt when people offer me MP3's I don't have the original of. I never pinched stuff off the sweety shelf at the local shop, in fact I was (and probably still am) a right boring fart, really. Well, f*** it. Yes, f*** it. I am sick of governments I don't vote for, or governments from other countries I have f*** all to do with telling me, via the government I have, what to do. What is it with these spineless s***es that they bend over backwards and surrender the rules of their local democracy to a foreign power? Well, the gloves are off 
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#230850 - 16/08/2004 22:48
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Woah! I wonder how you would have reacted if you had to see some of the ads we have to sit through here. They all have the same theme: "don't steal movies because it's not just the big actors and studios you're ripping off, it's the little guys too." The one I see most often is with a stunt man, telling us how he puts his life on the line to make a great movie, and because I'm downloading it, he's starving.
First, I have a lot of respect for those guys. Stunt work is impressive.
Second, does the salary of people like stunt men actually have anything to do with the sucess of the movie?? I doubt it.
Third, these commercials claim that some insane figure, like tens of billions of dollars, are lost due to downloading. Come on, I'd be willing to bet that the piracy in Asian countries, which has been going on for far longer than P2P, makes up more of the percentage than people downloading am in-the-theater copy of Spiderman 2. Hell, one of my mom's best friends lived in Malaysia, and she would buy dozens of films a month, at $2 a pop, from the local guy-on-the-street selling Acadamy screeners of Fellowship of the Ring.
Anyway, it's disturbing that these lobbying groups now have power over your government, and they decide that this is the way to go, instead of shutting down larger targets of illegal distribution. That's the thing that's bugged me in all this.
Oh, and I can't wait for Shaun of the Dead. I've been wanting to see that for a long time.
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Matt
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#230851 - 17/08/2004 00:41
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I have always paid my dues
As have I.
Up until about 18 months ago, I was adamantly against music piracy. There was *nothing* in my player that I didn't have a paid-for original source sitting on my shelf at home.
Then the RIAA came in with their heavy-handed, fascist enforcements and their preposterous claims showing that every year the recording industry lost more money through piracy than the gross domestic product of the entire planet.
Screw 'em. Thanks to the RIAA, as much as 2--3% of the music on my player is now pirated -- "borrowed" from friends (never downloaded from the internet, the quality is too indifferent) without my paying a dime for it. Of course, I also have perhaps a dozen CDs that I never would have purchased had not someone sent me a track from one or another of them that I liked enough so that I went out and bought the rest of them.
I think RIAA is their own worst enemy, and have probably contributed to more piracy than they have stopped. I know that to be true in my case.
Regardless, I think it is a moot point. I believe that the record industry as we know it today will be gone in five years as more and more artists sell their work directly on the internet, bypassing the record labels entirely. An artist who sold his songs for a dime apiece on the internet would probably put more money in his pocket than if the songs were being sold at $18 per CD by the record labels.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#230852 - 17/08/2004 08:28
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Oh, and I can't wait for Shaun of the Dead. I've been wanting to see that for a long time.
I can't believe you guys have had to wait that long.
Rob, I don't know if you've been to the cinema in the UK recently but we now get the same crap about piracy before films too. In some ways I almost think it incites people to pirate films and CDs just to get back at f*cking pricks that run these companies. Now the majority (and I mean the vast majority) of my music/films/tv programs are legit. But I still have to resort to download to get certain things especially if they've been deleted or were never publicly available. I don't think that brands me as a criminal, however if you believe the adverts, simply saying the words Peer to Peer would get you a prison sentance and an unlimited fine.
BTW: Rob, was Shaun of the Dead dubbed or subtitled?
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#230853 - 17/08/2004 09:27
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Subtitled - this was why the audience wasn't so sure about me, I suspect: I got the joke instantly without reading the subtitles while they were still reading. There came a point where they were waiting for me to laugh before allowing themselves to let go "Well, the weirdo is laughing, so we can too! HA HA HA HA HA" etc. 
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#230854 - 17/08/2004 12:31
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In the States, it seems that, all of a sudden, there is this huge label on 90% of the CDs out there labelled " FBI Anti-Piracy Warning", or some such, with a poorly rendered seal of some nature (maybe the FBI's seal), followed by some annoying text about, basically, how it's illegal to copy the music off the CD. Very irritating. Makes me want to pirate it all the more, despite the fact that I wanted to buy these CDs.
Here's the text that accompanies it:
Quote:
The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and punishable by up to 5 years in a federal prison and a fine of $250,000.
Notice that it doesn't exclude the fair uses expressly permitted in the copyright code. In fact, "unauthorized" makes it sound like you have to get the express written consent of the president of RIAA.
Edited by wfaulk (17/08/2004 12:36)
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Bitt Faulk
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#230855 - 17/08/2004 13:16
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Notice that it doesn't exclude the fair uses expressly permitted in the copyright code. In fact, "unauthorized" makes it sound like you have to get the express written consent of the president of RIAA.
"Those people are rebroadcasting baseball with implied oral consent"....
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#230856 - 17/08/2004 13:47
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Bravo!
Quite frankly (and I KNOW this is going to make me unpopular), I have ZERO problems with music piracy, with rare exception. If the music can be purchased directly from the artists, I willl HAPPILY pay for it. A successful example of this concept can be found at Gridlock's website .
However, for everyone who "want to buy" music (and Bitt, this isn't referring to your comment), let's see where your money goes:
Hrm... I can't remember the last time I wanted to give the record store $6 as thanks for letting me shop in their store. Nor do I feel that I should pay the record company for something I neither want nor need (the physical media).
I would be more than happy, however, to send the artists their royalty directly. I just need an address. But I refuse to pay the prostate-raping prices the American music machine wants to charge me. Especially when I don't want them shipping the CD from Japan anyways. Just let me pay a FAIR price for the music, then give me my FTP username and password, RIAA. I'll download it, thank you very much. Until then....
Another thing to consider is that while many people say "Download music without paying for it is WRONG!", they seem to have no problem paying pennies per MB to pull it from quasi-legal sites in Russia. (Which I must admit have VERY good selections.)
Like I said, I know this may probably make me fairly unpopular here, but I'm not going to lie and wring my hands and say "Oh, the poor record execs!" just for the sake of being popular.
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Dave
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#230857 - 17/08/2004 14:19
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
However, for everyone who "want to buy" music (and Bitt, this isn't referring to your comment), let's see where your money goes:
Well honestly, none of that stuff comes cheap. Making a decent CD is more than just writing a song and having a band. Even then getting it into the hands of people to buy it is where most of the money is. Maybe a different system will work (and actually I think it will, and soon, exactly like Doug said where bands can release their stuff directly over the internet). My CD is almost finished and I guarantee it'll sell a very few copies because I don't have all of those slices of the pie working for me. Of course I'll get to keep every penny I make on it, but if I only sell 100 copies I think I'd rather have the $1.90 to sell thousands. Not to say that I want a record deal- I'm hoping I find another way- but I can certainly see the value record compaines and even record stores bring to the process.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230858 - 17/08/2004 14:33
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Well honestly, none of that stuff comes cheap. Making a decent CD is more than just writing a song and having a band
Ok, not to sound rude, but did I miss the part of the picture that shows over 33% of the money goes to retail mark-up?
That aside, I think you're right on the rest. Direct from the artist distribution is the way to go. If I heard your music and liked it, I would, of course, HAPPILY pay you for it. Pay you, not Best Buy or Amazon, etc... I wouldn't even mind paying $12 or so for the pleasure of downloading an album if the ARTIST got that $12.
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Dave
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#230859 - 17/08/2004 14:37
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
However, for everyone who "want to buy" music (and Bitt, this isn't referring to your comment), let's see where your money goes:
[censored]. Marketing, distribution, co-op advertising and production costs usually get billed back to the artist against their royalties.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#230860 - 17/08/2004 14:43
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: genixia]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Of course. You don't expect the LABEL to pay for anything do you? They already take a cut of the profits. What do you WANT from them?!!?! 
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Dave
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#230861 - 17/08/2004 15:28
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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there's some TV show, I think it's called 'cribs' or something. it's a show about the wild homes of the filthy rich pop stars.
I shed a tear each time I watch it knowing deep in my heart that they could have afforded a third swimming pool had I only not DL'd the mp3s.
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#230862 - 17/08/2004 15:28
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I can't remember the last time I wanted to give the record store $6 as thanks for letting me shop in their store
Not to negate your argument, but I think that the vast majority of that money is going to the distributors and other middlemen, not the shops. On the other hand, you're paying a large chunk of money to retailers and distributors every time you purchase something from a store. Or are you buying your steaks from the cows?
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Bitt Faulk
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#230863 - 17/08/2004 15:34
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
did I miss the part of the picture that shows over 33% of the money goes to retail mark-up?
Yeah, and I know someone personally who operated an online store who ended up going bankrupt because he didn't charge a high markup on CDs. He was dealing with independent artists and figured he could live with half the markup most places did, and he went out of business. Actually his business was sold, they're now charging a typical markup and doing quite well.
When my CD comes out I'm going to also create a site where people can purchase it online. The only issue there is whether people are going to be willing to paypal money to buy music. So I'll be able to sell clean, non-DRM mp3 files (and possibly FLAC) without incurring the overhead costs charged by retailers.
That still doesn't address the issue of promotion, though. For so long the radio has been the only real way to get exposure out for new music, but in this digital age it seems there must be a better way. I suppose the first step is for independent artists to open the flood gates by doing what I plan on doing- selling direct over the internet. When there are too many to reasonably sift through it all on your own some method will evolve so the cream will rise to the top.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230864 - 17/08/2004 15:35
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Interesting. This is the first time I've heard of a theater-shown movie containing a copyright-protection message at the beginning. I'm used to the FBI and/or Interpol warnings at the beginning of videos, but not on a ticket-and-popcorn theater film. I didn't know they were starting to do that. I have yet to see one.
Honestly I don't see how such a message is going to change anything. Those who wish to pirate are going to do so whether there's a message on the screen or not.
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#230865 - 17/08/2004 15:40
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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That's an interesting pie chart, Dave. I hope it's true, actually, because the "Royalties to artist and songwriter" slice is a lot larger than I was led to believe by Courtney Love et al.
I have no problem with giving a retail record store that much of a markup. Retail markup is part of business, it's the only way retail stores can exist. And the marketing/promotion engines are the way we learn the record exists, so they're a necessary evil in that system.
I foresee and am actively wishing for a system where the retail record stores and the marketing/promotion engines are no longer necessary. The technology is there, we just need to stitch all the pieces together so that the technology works for us as a tool for finding new music that we'd like. We're inching ever closer to that day.
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#230866 - 17/08/2004 15:45
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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(Rousing, sustained roar of approval and applause)
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#230867 - 17/08/2004 16:15
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: lastdan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
there's some TV show, I think it's called 'cribs' or something. it's a show about the wild homes of the filthy rich pop stars.
I shed a tear each time I watch it knowing deep in my heart that they could have afforded a third swimming pool had I only not DL'd the mp3s.
There's a lot more artists out there that don't make that kind of money. I download from emusic because it's good value and a Russian site (mostly for stuff I've already got on vinyl). I'd love to use Napster or preferably the artists own distribution channel but I want high bit-rate mp3's or flac, these aren't available through iTunes/Napster etc so I don't use them
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#230868 - 17/08/2004 16:21
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
(Rousing, sustained roar of approval and applause)
Me too
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#230869 - 17/08/2004 16:52
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'd like to argue with that chart. Quote:
36.7%: Retail Markup
19.7%: Company overhead, distribution, and shipping
12.7%: Marketing and promotion
11.7%: Royalties to artist and songwriter
6.4%: Signing act and producing record
5%: Co-op advertising and discounts to retailers
4.4%: Pressing album and printing booklet
3.5%: Profit to label
While I'm sure these numbers are reasonably accurate on average, do you think they spend as much money promoting the new Sparta release as they did the new Britney Spears release? I'd say that the vast majority of promotion goes to a few big acts.
"Signing act and producing record": How are these two things related? For one, in most cases, you've probably got one underpaid A&R guy competing with no one in order to sign a lot of bands. As opposed to teams of them courting Britney Spears. And how is producing a record related in any way to signing the band? IMO, the money they pay to producers and engineers should almost be lumped in under royalties; after all, I've purchased albums based solely on those guys. Of course, that's not to say that recording studio time isn't expensive. Of course, as pointed out before, it's taken back out of the band's royalties. I think they may be why they're lumped together -- so you can't figure out what the band's real profit is. If you subtract the $1.08 from the $1.99, that leaves $0.91 in profits, not taking interest into account. Of course, this is still on average, and the massive royalties made by those top artists are likely to significantly skew the statistic.
"Discounts to retailers": What? How does discounting cost money? Sure, it could eat into profits, but it's not like it costs anything, and they list profits separately. Of course, this is just their way to hide the fact that they're dumping to WalMart and BestBuy for reasons that escape me. Maybe they don't like independent retailers for some reason.
"Profit to label": This is here to make you think how little money the label gets. But this is money free and clear that they get to put in the bank. All the huge salaries of the record execs are bound to be in the euphemistic "Company Overhead" category. I wonder why that section is so big? And all the other employees seem to be covered in other sections. This is pure profit.
"Distribution and shipping": This is here as if the retailers aren't paying for shipments. I'm sure that all the distributors and labels are happy to eat the costs of shipping. Right. And pigs have wings.
"Royalties to artist and songwriter": I wonder if this includes the money from public performances? If so, none of this money gets to anyone but the top charted songs. It's not as if when The Mars Volta gets played publically, they see money from it. No. The money gets remitted to the royalties organizations who redistribute it based on chart positions, which means, yet again, Britney gets all the money and none gets to small acts.
Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
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Bitt Faulk
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#230870 - 17/08/2004 16:59
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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And, to add just a bit more fuel to the fire, what about acts and bands that are no longer around. Sure, those percentages may reflect a current artist. But what about the sales of older albums? I am sure that anything older than, say, two years does not fall into that same profit pattern...
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#230871 - 17/08/2004 17:09
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Royalties to artist and songwriter": I wonder if this includes the money from public performances?
The one thing I do know about this is that songwriters get a fixed amount (I think it's something like 7 cents per song) each time a CD is pressed, not sold. I don't know if a songwriter gets money at all for a song performance. Not that this really adds to the discussion much . . .
Quote:
Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
Too true!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230872 - 17/08/2004 17:22
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
"Discounts to retailers": What? How does discounting cost money? Sure, it could eat into profits, but it's not like it costs anything, and they list profits separately. Of course, this is just their way to hide the fact that they're dumping to WalMart and BestBuy for reasons that escape me. Maybe they don't like independent retailers for some reason.
It's worse than that. Discounts to retailers are often labelled as "Promotional" such that the entire cost of the CD gets passed on to the artist (which then absorbs the royalties from about 5-10 other full price sales)
And just in case you were wondering, the book industry runs the same scam.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#230873 - 17/08/2004 17:29
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I'd like to argue with that chart.
I have no problem with that. It can be found at CNN's site.
I mean that not in a sarcastic way. Simply pointing out that I myself did not make the chart, and any arguments as to it's validity should be addressed to the people who did.
Bitt, I respect your argument. I really do. But what it fails to address is this: I hope we can all agree that the artists likely see little of what is paid for the CDs. The majority goes to the record company and to the retailers. I will not, repeat WILL NOT, continue to pay for something I neither want nor need: I have no use for 100s of mylar disks, rotting away in a closet somewhere, just so I can wave it around triumphantly when the RIAA raid team breaks down my door. I have no problem buying my music, but I will only buy the MUSIC. Not the retail markup and all the other crap. To me it's like having to pay for Windows on a new computer. I'm not gonna pay for something I'm never going to use, nor should I be required to.
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Dave
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#230874 - 17/08/2004 17:46
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Oh, I didn't mean to argue with you -- just the chart. In fact, most of my arguments are intended to point out that the record company and big artists are making more than it shows and that the small artists are making nothing.
Unlike you, I do want the CD, if for no other reason than the backup. I certainly think that that's worth $0.75 to me. But that's a non-issue, really. I also have worked in the retail industry and understand where the money goes there. While I'm not too happy about distributors making so much money, I do think that having a retail establishment is important, especially to people who want a physical copy.
However, I do think that the recording industry is screwing both the producers and consumers. It's another Enron and has been for a long time.
In the best of both worlds, they would press CDs and sell them as usual (hopefully with some reform in the industry to lower prices somewhat) and also sell them online. Ideally, the artists would retain control of the recordings and music and they'd get all the profit from the downloads while the industry would get money from the CDs, with royalties still going back to the artists.
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Bitt Faulk
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#230875 - 17/08/2004 17:46
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I will not, repeat WILL NOT, continue to pay for something I neither want nor need: I have no use for 100s of mylar disks
Yes, but very little of that chart is about creating those mylar disks. Most of it is about getting the music from the musicians into your hands. If you can find ways to get that music without the record companies etc. being invovled then more power to you, but P2P isn't that. P2P (for the most part) wouldn't work if the record companies hadn't signed the artist, promoted the artist, gotten the artist playtime on the airwaves, and ultimately got the CDs in stores (even online) for someone to purchase. Sure there is music available via P2P that wasn't made popular and supported by the record compaines, but I'd say the vast majoirty of it is.
I do think record companies take advantage of artists and the whole thing is a big mess. They force music on the airwaves that is sub par and spend waaay to much time trying to catch people trying to steal music rather than working toward making music people want to buy. They treat people like me like criminals, shoving warnings in my face that say what I'm doing by using digital audio is criminal (even though it isn't). I'm frustrated by having to deal with drm if I want to buy music online and losing music because the machine I had it on (with drm licenses) had to be reformated. Having said all that, the record companies and the whole system have given us music we'd not have had if they haden't existed. I do have a problem taking music from them without compensating them for it. I just think a better system can be devised- and will be soon.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230876 - 17/08/2004 17:51
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
P2P (for the most part) wouldn't work if the record companies hadn't signed the artist, promoted the artist, gotten the artist playtime on the airwaves, and ultimately got the CDs in stores (even online) for someone to purchase.
Actually, that's one of my problems with P2P. The oddball stuff that I want to be able to find online to see if I like or because I can't find it "legally" isn't available because all the networks are choked with a thousand different poorly ripped and poorly encoded Britney tracks.
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Bitt Faulk
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#230877 - 17/08/2004 18:02
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
The oddball stuff that I want to be able to find online to see if I like or because I can't find it "legally" isn't available because all the networks are choked with a thousand different poorly ripped and poorly encoded Britney tracks.
I don't generally use P2P. Generally only for things that are out of print and unable to get through other means.
I think my biggest "ARRRGGH!" moment come when I run into things like I linked to in my first rant in this thread: The Rip Slyme CD I can order for just about $20 from Japan costs me almost $40 here. Why? Because they imported me a mylar disk that I'm going to rip then never see again unless I go to my basement? I just can't bring myself to do that.
As far as backups go, I can fit a hell of a lot of FLAC encoded albums on one DVD-R.....
I can understand that some people want the original CD. I'm just not one of them.
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Dave
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#230878 - 17/08/2004 18:13
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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So guys, what would be the best way to distribute music without the record compaines? Download or purchase it off of individual artists' sites or some other variation where you are essentially paying the artist directly? If so (and I like this plan as it seems good for both the artist and the buyer), how to bands get their music out where people can find it? How does the common music fan (not the net-savy geeky kind most of us are) hear new stuff that they might like to buy? Even if the radio stations were open to playing non-signed artists, how would they find the best music amid the thousands of independent artists who can book some studio tiem and cobble a song or two together?
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230879 - 17/08/2004 18:38
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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This doesn't answer your question, but most of the way I find out about new music is by listening to the suggestions at my local independent music shop. Maybe you could go to them and get them to listen to it. Of course, I bet the kind of music you're playing wouldn't go over very well at one of those establishments. But I haven't heard your music, so I could be wrong.
The long and short of it is "word of mouth". Get people to listen to it who are likely to recommend it to a lot of other people. And you're unlikely to get people to pay to listen to music unless you have a track record. Pick out a good single and some outtakes and distribute those for free. Let them pay for the rest of the A material and the B material.
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Bitt Faulk
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#230880 - 17/08/2004 18:55
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
They force music on the airwaves that is sub par and spend waaay to much time trying to catch people trying to steal music rather than working toward making music people want to buy.
I agree with the sentiments you're trying to express. However, one small technical quibble I have is with that statement. As disappointing as it may seem, the sub par stuff on the airwaves is, more or less, the music that people want to buy.
I don't begrudge the record companies when they run with a hit. If Britney Spears can make million-selling records, it's because she's doing something right. Well, the Britney Spears Machine as a whole is doing something right, anyway. I may dislike it on artistic grounds, but clearly a large chunk of the record-buying population doesn't dislike it.
Yes, every time I look at a top-40 chart I lose a little more faith in the human race...
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#230881 - 17/08/2004 19:23
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Of course, I bet the kind of music you're playing wouldn't go over very well at one of those establishments. But I haven't heard your music, so I could be wrong.
No, I'm pretty sure you're on target.
I'm not so much worried about my music though. The moment I decided to do "Christian" music that limited my promotional options like crazy. Not only does that cut out most of the population who just aren't interested in music that is religiously based, but Christian labels also have a very clear defined vision of what Christian music is that doesn't leave as much room for expression as I'd like. So my expectations are low concerning how my stuff will do.
What I'm more interested in is how we can have acess to the best music and let the very best rise to the top, not because some guy thinks I'd like it, but because it really is popular with a large number of people similar to myself.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230882 - 17/08/2004 19:30
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
What I'm more interested in is how we can have acess to the best music and let the very best rise to the top, not because some guy thinks I'd like it, but because it really is popular with a large number of people similar to myself.
What I'm interested in is a world where there isn't an artistic "top" to rise to. In other words, a world where artists connect with listeners whether they appeal to a very small segment of the population or to the widest possible audience.
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#230883 - 17/08/2004 19:33
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
clearly a large chunk of the record-buying population doesn't dislike it.
This is well put, and is one of the problems with the capitalism (tyranny of the majority). Of course that just leaves us with music that just keeps geting more uninteresting. In this day and age where retail is getting more and more personalized, you'd think exposure to music could be too. And I suppose it is- Amazon and other sites will tell you what others like you have purchased. Still, it takes a bit of faith to hear a snipit of a song a website told you you might like and then buy it.
By the way, I'm not really arguing for or against anything here. Just thinking out loud (or on screen).
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230884 - 17/08/2004 19:37
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think, though, in a sense there are many "tops". Certainly there are a lot of people with the same tastes as I have in music. We may not be a huge force out there, but somebody at the "top" of this style could do very well if I knew they were out there. The trick is connecting that person and myself (along with others who share my tastes).
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230885 - 17/08/2004 19:40
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I understand. The only way to get paid for your music is for people to buy it. The only way they will buy it is if they are interested in it. The only way for people to be interested in it is to hear it. The only way for people to hear it is to buy it. Kind of a catch-22. You've gotta cut that circle somewhere, and the only place you can cut it is to not get paid for it, at least at some point. Maybe you could release an album for free and susequent ones would be for-profit. Quote:
Christian labels also have a very clear defined vision of what Christian music is that doesn't leave as much room for expression as I'd like
Replace "Christian" with any other genre and you'd still have a true statement. In all honesty, it's the crap I hear on TV classified as Christian music that annoys me. That "My God Is an Awesome God" crap-ola. But I have a number of albums from groups that consider themselves Christian and whose lyrics point in that direction, but who aren't didactic about it. (Pedro the Lion and U2 come to mind.)
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Bitt Faulk
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#230886 - 17/08/2004 20:09
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Replace "Christian" with any other genre and you'd still have a true statement.
Yeah, I'm under no illusion that it is different anywhere else. In the end, the Christian record companies are just divisions of the big secular ones who's end goal is to make money (go figure).Quote:
the crap I hear on TV classified as Christian music that annoys me.
There's very little classified as Christian that I enjoy either. There is some very mainstream stuff that I like because I find the lyrics encouraging and uplifting and I appreciate the musicianship, even if the style is not what I'd normally listen to. Howver, in general most Christian stuff just doesn't appeal to me. Even the rock groups like "Third Day" are only somewhat suited to my tastes.
Quote:
But I have a number of albums from groups that consider themselves Christian and whose lyrics point in that direction, but who aren't didactic about it.
I honestly never intended to start writing Christian music, but it's just what comes out. You've read my posts so you know I can't start anything without somehow talking about God; it's just the way I am. I figure I'll do what I like and if people want to buy it then cool. If not, well then at least I created what was within me to create.
Oh, and as far as giving music away free, I'll probably make at least a song or two freely downloadable. Also, I just might put a "disclaimer" on the CD proudly explaining that people are free to copy it as much as they want. I had a friend who's band did that and they were selling CDs nation-wide by the thousands and not even signed to a label (apparently not everyone took them up on their offer). Of course, they had a really good promoter to go along with a really great CD. Sadly, they're signed now and can't put such things on their current CDs. Their music is not nearly as good as it used to be either, though I hear rumers that an upcoming CD my burst this trend.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230887 - 18/08/2004 02:41
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I hate to jump in late, but when I read Quote:
The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and punishable by up to 5 years in a federal prison and a fine of $250,000.
I instantly thought of the VHS Pirates segment of Amazon Women on the Moon. OOOOH, I'm so SCARED!
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#230888 - 18/08/2004 09:55
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
The only way to get paid for your music is for people to buy it. The only way they will buy it is if they are interested in it. The only way for people to be interested in it is to hear it. The only way for people to hear it is to buy it. Kind of a catch-22.
I somewhat agree, Bitt. The thing to consider, though, is that you can allow people to listen to either a 30-second clip at CD quality, or download the whole track at fairly poor quality. Not all the tracks from an album, mind you, but a representative sample. This would allow people to make a decision if they wanted to pay to hear more.
The 30-second HQ / full song LQ idea isn't mine. Came across it on some artist's website, though I don't remember who at the moment. Add a shopping cart and you have the problem solved.
I agree with you on the "word-of-mouth" thing. With the music I listen to, that's generally all I have to go on anyways. I don't remember the last time MTV played anything by The Legendary Pink Dots, 16 Volt, Melt Banana or Rimi Natsukawa.
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Dave
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#230889 - 18/08/2004 09:59
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Sadly, they're signed now and can't put such things on their current CDs. Their music is not nearly as good as it used to be either
I see this as one of the main problems with the music industry. The "I want a record deal" crap. If your friends were selling albums by the thousands nationwide, what reason did they have to get a deal with a label?
This isn't in any way a slam on your friends, mind you. I just don't understand why people need the labels.
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Dave
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#230890 - 18/08/2004 11:16
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
If your friends were selling albums by the thousands nationwide, what reason did they have to get a deal with a label?
Well actually they never sought out a record deal. In fact, even as little as a month before they finally signed they were still working other jobs to make a living. They turned down the first offers and were pretty adamant that they'd only sign if was a deal that really worked for them. But the truth is, even with the number of CDs they were selling and the amount they were charging for concerts, they still couldn't make a living off the music (the problem of having seven people in the band). The deal they landed in the end was pretty nice, better than most newly-signed artists, and it allowed them to transition to doing music full time. They pretty much got the record company to let them do what they want and select the producer they wanted- I forgot who it was but it was a pretty big name- worked with the Indigo Girls and such. When they started touring they didn't have to open up for anyone because they'ed already spent several years paying their dues.
And I think they're pretty happy now (six or seven years later) and making the music they want to. I don't like it as much, but then they didn't ask me! But the thing is, when they went with the label they did it on their own terms and didn't get taken for a ride the way many do.
As for why they signed: Just about everyone I knew listened to them (of course, we all lived in their hometown) before they were signed, but the local Christian radio station simply would not play their music. Once they were signed they started playing it all the time. That's why people need record deals. They had tons of word of mouth exposure before, but once they were signed their exposure went through the roof. I remember being on my Honeymoon in Hawii and mentioning to another couple that I was from Houston and they immediatly started talking about my friend's band; they'ed heard of them on the radio- not word of mouth.
The other thing the record deal got them was a great CD. You can still purchase their pre-label stuff and it sounds so much weaker than what they were able to do once signed. Since then things have changed a bit and it's much easier to put togegether a high quality album, but the label definitely helped the afford to do the CD they really wanted. The interesting thing is that now they're not very fond of that first national CD (I love it, though).
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#230891 - 18/08/2004 13:54
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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#230892 - 18/08/2004 14:54
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
For some reason I sat there in the cinema as if I'd been struck by lightning. It was as if that message had been aimed, in all it's patronisation, directly at me.
I was thinking exactly the same thing last night, while watching I, Robot. The messaging in UK cinemeas currently is:
"It is illegal to make a recording of this movie.
If you do so, you will be:
- Ejected from the theatre
- Permanently banned from <insert cinema chain here> theatres
- Receive a minimum £2000 fine and a possible prison sentance
Piracy is theft etc etc etc"
I forget the rest, it went on a bit. As a customer I'm not accustomed to being spoken to like that.
Rob
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#230893 - 18/08/2004 14:55
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Apparently I need to start wearing a sandwich board that says "It is illegal to shoot me."
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Bitt Faulk
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#230894 - 18/08/2004 14:57
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Is it? Damn. If you hadn't said I would have!
They've been putting those notices into films at the cinema for quite a few months now. If they catch you with a camcorder then you're assumed to be guilty and kicked out. This includes having it in the bag and switched off.
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#230895 - 18/08/2004 15:10
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
This includes having it in the bag and switched off.
I'd be willing to give that a try, I'd scream blue f**king murder if they tried to eject me.
Besides, who would want to see a film shot on a camcorder in a cinema? A screener DVD maybe.
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Andy M
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#230896 - 18/08/2004 15:17
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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It's difficult to see how they'd even do that one anyway as they can't search you. The ticket guy I know at the local cinema said they were told to watch out for people with camcorders in bags. No idea if it was official policy or just some manager going OTT.
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#230897 - 18/08/2004 15:20
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Besides, who would want to see a film shot on a camcorder in a cinema?
Unfortunately, some piracy rings operate in exactly that fashion. Then they sell VCDs or DVDs or the cammed films. Or post them on the internet to be downloaded.
I just laugh at the whole thing. Those who already do that will not be deterred by a copyright message, because they know what they're doing. Someone caught doing it can be ejected from the theater anyway, whether that message was on the film or not, so it's not a legal tool. So if it's not a deterrent, and not a legal tool, then the only thing the message does is insult the law abiding patrons.
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#230898 - 18/08/2004 16:05
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Those are some of the funniest movies to watch. I can't believe anyone actually watches those, but they do, including my mom's friend in Malaysia. She's always sending me these DVDs she gets on the streets there, and at first it was kinda cool to get all these movies, but then I realized that they were all of that variety.
I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.
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Matt
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#230900 - 19/08/2004 00:13
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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...but who aren't didactic about it.
Score another one for Bitt.
That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.
Excellent!
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#230901 - 19/08/2004 00:55
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.
Delectable!
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#230902 - 19/08/2004 04:53
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
...but who aren't didactic about it.
Score another one for Bitt.
That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.
Well, it's a perfectly cromulent word.
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#230903 - 19/08/2004 09:44
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.
Actually, I think that may be the COOLEST DVD extra I've ever heard of. Way better than "Motion Menus!".
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Dave
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#230904 - 19/08/2004 09:44
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
16 Volt!!!
I honestly think 16 Volt is one of the most underrated bands out there.
But that's just me.
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Dave
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#230905 - 19/08/2004 14:32
Re: Late night diatribe
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.
Actually, I think that may be the COOLEST DVD extra I've ever heard of. Way better than "Motion Menus!".
Hehe, I think my favorite was some DVD which only listed "Chapter stops!"
It's killing me not knowing which DVD that was. It was pretty recent, and I even want to say that the pirated version had a commentary track, or maybe it was that it only had a commentary track...:)
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Matt
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