#214133 - 23/04/2004 14:41
The Patriot Act in action
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770
This is Bush's legacy; the wholesale destruction of our civil rights.
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#214135 - 23/04/2004 15:24
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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The bit I found most interesting.
As she walked away from the table, she continued to repeat it to herself: "We are at war, we are at war. How can they not understand this?"
Sounds slightly delusional to me.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#214136 - 23/04/2004 16:29
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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It is just an example, but one that seriously pissed me off. It is news to me that they can hold you without cause now. 200 Years of legal protection down the drain.
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#214137 - 23/04/2004 18:40
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
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#214138 - 23/04/2004 19:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The appropriate text of the Constitution (Amendment IV) states: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I guess the issue is what's reasonable.
(BTW, has anyone else noticed that the entire Constitution is rife with extraneous commas?)
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Bitt Faulk
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#214139 - 23/04/2004 19:33
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#214140 - 24/04/2004 12:27
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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I just refinanced a home.
Turns out the Patriot Act paperwork bureacracy has filtered into this as well.
I had to sign a Patriot Act document saying I was who I said I was and providing Xerox copies of my passport -- just in case some terrorist had decided that secretly assuming the burden of my home debt would further his nefarious ends.
What the hell are people thinking?
"May I help you?"
"Yes, I'd like 2 tons of fertilizer, some surface-to-air missiles, a couple of radio-controlled detonators, a jumbo jet filled with fuel, and ... um, would it be OK if I refinanced your house for you?"
"Uh, I can't help you with the high explosives, but I'll take you up on that whole house thing. I sure hate making house payments every month!"
"No problem, you capitalist swine, that's just part of our jihad against The Great Satan. We want to make sure you are all well-housed before we kill all you Westerners."
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
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#214141 - 24/04/2004 12:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I had to sign a Patriot Act document saying I was who I said I was I just asked my wife about this. She had an interesting take on it.
It's a proof-of-ID form, something that you already have to provide during the loan process, so you're right, it's redundant beauracratic paperwork. However, it has an interesting benefit...
Before this form, your proof of identity happens at the end of the loan process, at the moment when you sign with the notary. With this form, you have to show your ID at the beginning of the process instead.
My wife says that three times this year so far, it's allowed her to discover that the people had expired IDs. Because it was discovered at the beginning of the process instead of the end, it was discovered soon enough for the borrower to correct the problem and save the loan before the lock expired.
I mean, I agree with you, I'm not saying everything about the Patriot act is bunnies and rainbows, I just wanted to bring up an interesting side-effect it had.
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#214142 - 24/04/2004 17:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Before this form, your proof of identity happens at the end of the loan process, at the moment when you sign with the notary. With this form, you have to show your ID at the beginning of the process instead.
Funny you should mention this.
That's exactly not how it happened with me.
Two days before I met with the notary (which was three months after I applied for the loan!) they called me up and said "The notary comes day after tomorrow. Be sure to bring two Xerox copies of your drivers license and two Xerox copies of your Social Security card or passport."
Two days later the notary said, "Hey, what are those things for? I just need to see your driver's license. I guess you're supposed to send those copies back to the bank with your loan package or something."
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#214143 - 24/04/2004 23:47
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Right, my point being that the photo ID part (the driver's license) was, until now, not requested from you until that last step.
If your driver's license had been expired, and if your loan officer was on his/her toes, the act of having to supply the copy of it at the beginning of the process means they would have caught the problem early.
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#214144 - 25/04/2004 03:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan? 
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#214145 - 25/04/2004 09:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan?
Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information, just a different endorsement or class printed on it.
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#214146 - 25/04/2004 11:21
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan? "Driver's License" and "Photo ID" are usually interchangeable terms. When someone says that they need to see your "Driver's License", in almost all cases they mean "Driver's License or equivalent photo identification that's considered valid and legal in this state". (Unless of course you've just been pulled over by the state police, in which case they really mean driver's license.)
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#214147 - 25/04/2004 14:21
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Right, my point being that the photo ID part (the driver's license) was, until now, not requested from you until that last step.
Tony, I think you skimmed my post quickly and missed my point entirely.
So, just to clarify.
They did not ask for any ID at the beginning of the loan process.
They did not ask for any ID during the entire 3 month period they were processing the loan.
They did ask for all kinds of ID suddenly, and almost without warning, at the very last minute, on the very last day, at closing, with the notary, and in a very redundant, useless, and extremely bureaucratic manner.
I.e., no chance of catching problems early.
This paperwork served no potential useful purpose whatsoever.
And, repeating for the fourth time, they DID NOT ask for any ID at the beginning of the process, but instead wanted ridiculous amounts of ID at the very last minute as well as a Patriot Act Declaration.
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#214148 - 25/04/2004 15:50
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Heather]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information, just a different endorsement or class printed on it. Heh, this (in conjuction with SSN) is so different from universal ID card used in many European countries (including mine)...
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Q#5196
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#214149 - 25/04/2004 15:59
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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They did not ask for any ID at the beginning of the loan process. I thought you said you had to provide a photo ID for the Patriot Act form. You're telling me that they didn't have you fill out the patriot act form until the very end of the process? That's odd.
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#214150 - 25/04/2004 16:26
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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You're telling me that they didn't have you fill out the patriot act form until the very end of the process?
True!
That's odd.
Well, I think the Patriot Act itself is odd. So it seems fitting.
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#214151 - 25/04/2004 16:50
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Heh, this (in conjuction with SSN) is so different from universal ID card used in many European countries
No, Driver's Licenses are issued by state. So they wouldn't become a universal ID card unless (1) states were mandated to share information on these cards, (2) and unless social security numbers were required to get a card, (3) and unless digital thumbprints, signatures, and photos became mandatory for the cards, and unless (4) they were a mandatory form of ID for such things as boarding planes, or crossing state borders, or were documents required to be upon your person in case of arrest or surprise gestapo inspections.
Hey, wait a minute....
Come to think of it.....
Most of these changes have been slipped in one at a time over the past 10-12 years!
Items (1) and (2) went in under the guise of preventing "deadbeat dads" (men who leave the state and don't pay their child support).
Item (3) went in under the guise of "modernizing" as well as using the thumbprint for some anti-criminal or anti-deadbeat-dad justifications.
A lot of things in Item (4) took off after 9/11.
I guess all we need to make it a universal ID is some law that says it's illegal to be out in public without carrying one. And the link which started this thread makes it clear that that is coming soon. Already it's grounds for suspicion not to be carrying one. ("Are you trying to hide something.")
Looks like George Orwell might only have been off by 20 years.
"We have never been at war with Oceania."
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#214152 - 25/04/2004 22:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan?
Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information...
For sure in Calif. The ID card is layed out identical to a DL except the words "Drivers License" are replaced with "Identification Card".
The other difference is the inclusion of this note on the ID card.
"This identification card is issued solely for identification
purposes. It does not establish eligibility fo employment,
voter regestration, or public benifits. "
Why would they omit that on a DL card? Seems like it would apply same same.
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Glenn
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#214153 - 26/04/2004 11:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Every time I read something on Alternet, it really pisses me off about things going on in the U.S. I sure hope that the ACLU gets this thing scraped.
I think if I were there - I would have called 911 ASAP. It would be interesting to complicate the situation for them. After all - with behavior like that it would seem more like a hold up than alegitimate police investigation to a simple citizen like myself. Could you imagine a shoot out between the poilicemen? That movie comes to mind (Enemy of the State with Will Smith)
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RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
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#214154 - 16/12/2005 21:25
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Senate Rejects Extension of Patriot Actand thank God for that, too. Yahoo News LinkQuote:
WASHINGTON - In a stinging defeat for President Bush, Senate Democrats blocked passage Friday of a new Patriot Act to combat terrorism at home, depicting the measure as a threat to the constitutional liberties of innocent Americans.
CNN Link
I expect some decent coverage to show up here soon.
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#214155 - 16/12/2005 21:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: Robotic]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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I just read about this also. Very good news as far as I'm concerned.
I wonder how many people this thing has screwed over, over the last few years. I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the ratio of successful uses of the act to instances in which it has fucked peoples lives up is pretty bad.
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#214156 - 16/12/2005 22:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm personally of the opinion that it doesn't make any difference if it was "successful" at all; it's still a violation of people's rights, even if those people are criminals.
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Bitt Faulk
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#214157 - 16/12/2005 23:18
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
Just look at the second amendment. It's been infringed for 70 years. Ironically, many people who are against the Patriot Act are for violating the 2nd amendment to the Constitution.
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#214158 - 17/12/2005 00:02
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
Just look at the second amendment. It's been infringed for 70 years. Ironically, many people who are against the Patriot Act are for violating the 2nd amendment to the Constitution.
Or how about how the same people that blamed 9/11 on Bush because he "faiied to connect the dots" and "it happened on his watch" then go and take away the means to actually connect those "dots". These are the same laws that law enforcement has been able to use on organized crime for years. Simple concepts like a roaming wire tap. On December 31st, the "wall" that forbids the CIA from sharing information with the FBI (which could have prevented 9/11) goes back into effect. And all of these a-holes voted for the thing after 9/11 because going into the 2002 elections, they dared not vote against it. But now, even the headline admits that they don't see this as a hinderance to national security, they see this as a "stinging blow to Bush."
Like Iraq, all they see is political gain (both when they all voted for it and when they opposed it). I have more respect for the guys that opposed either the Patriot Act or the war in Iraq from the beginning than these spineless twerps who wet their finger to see which way the wind is blowing.
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Brad B.
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#214159 - 17/12/2005 00:09
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I wonder how many people this thing has screwed over, over the last few years. I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the ratio of successful uses of the act to instances in which it has fucked peoples lives up is pretty bad.
I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. Personally, I've heard of plenty of cases where it has been successful (and I assume there are plenty more we'll never hear about for 30 years) and very few cases of someone seriously wronged. And I imagine the number of people saved from the prevented attacks far out numbers the people denied due process. I'm sure we can both dig up news stories (nature of press coverage being I'd have to dig harder, but I'm sure it's there) but I doubt either one of us would find everything.
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Brad B.
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#214160 - 17/12/2005 00:14
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I'm personally of the opinion that it doesn't make any difference if it was "successful" at all; it's still a violation of people's rights, even if those people are criminals.
This is a fundamental difference between say the Bush administration and the Clinton administration. I, the Bush administration and most conservatives don't see al-Qaeda as criminals. They are the enemy. They aren't partaking in acts of crime. They have declared war on our nation and have been engaged in acts of war.
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Brad B.
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#214161 - 17/12/2005 01:46
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bbowman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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From alternet: Quote:
The USA PATRIOT Act ... (the name is actually an acronym: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act.")
Pah, there's one of those $10,000 names again. Not only does it fit the criteria of coherent acronym and full name, but both simultaneously contain doublespeak telling us it's patriotic and strengthening to undermine American freedom in the hopeless pursuit of terrorism. Terrorists will just communicate with stegonographically encrypted messages and never be found.
Quote:
"We were never at war with Oceana"
And that war certainly wasn't based on bad intelligence. Oh wait, it was, but it was still a worthwhile war. Sheesh.
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#214162 - 17/12/2005 02:13
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
This is a fundamental difference between say the Bush administration and the Clinton administration. I, the Bush administration and most conservatives don't see al-Qaeda as criminals. They are the enemy. They aren't partaking in acts of crime. They have declared war on our nation and have been engaged in acts of war.
Brad, I know you are doing your best to hold up this facade of the BBS' notable on-line Bush operative, but, after months of agonizing, I just have to confess and let you know... the jig is up, so to speak.
Fair warning time: It has been pretty clear to me since 2003 that you are an agent of a foreign power, and in early 2004 I sent a communique to that effect to the FBI. I think it is fair to assume that any electronic communications you have had since then -- whether on this BBS or on your telephone -- have been captured by the NSA. You might infer some false sense of security from the fact that you haven't been arrested and handcuffed yet, but, actually, arresting and charging people, well, that's not their style.
Anyhow, as much as some people here on the board disagree with you, we/I have come to regard you as a familiar piece of the BBS landscape. The thought of you spending the next twenty years in Guantanamo as a result of your ineffectual (I mean, they taped every word!) anti-US efforts just doesn't sit well.
There's still time. Open 24 hours: http://www.dwtunnel.com/customs.html
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#214163 - 17/12/2005 13:31
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
Just look at the second amendment. It's been infringed for 70 years. Ironically, many people who are against the Patriot Act are for violating the 2nd amendment to the Constitution.
*Your interpretation* of the 2nd amendment has been "infringed on" for 70 years. Unless you were present at the signing of the Constitution, or are currently sitting as a judge on one of America's courts, your interpretation is no more or less valid than anyone else's.
The "infringement" you speak of is what supreme court justices call "rulings," and "rulings" become "precedents." In the 70 years you speak of, we've had courts on the left, right, and center of any issue you can think of,who have all decided that "a well regulated militia" does not constitute unfettered access to any and all firearms. The very loose restrictions that are in place over gun ownership in this country represent the very least we can do to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. The arsenal that one can currently accumulate with almost no red tape, with gun show loopholes, internet ordering, etc. is astounding, and has only expanded under the current political regime. I think the NRA's current work is trying to allow minors to use the BFG-3000 for deer hunting, because that's about all that's left of gun control.
Not that this tangent has anything to do with the PATRIOT act... The fact that you had to bring up gun control in this discussion shows that you're "out of ammo."
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#214164 - 17/12/2005 13:53
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
On December 31st, the "wall" that forbids the CIA from sharing information with the FBI (which could have prevented 9/11) goes back into effect.
There isn't much debate about most of the PATRIOT act, and certainly no appreciable debate over the issue of whether FBI and CIA should have a "wall" between them. We now have a national intelligence director (Negroponte) whose sole job is to make sure all of our intelligence agencies share information. Even if the PATRIOT act is not renewed, Negroponte doesn't go away, and the FBI and CIA don't suddenly stop sharing information.
Even still, there's no legitimate threat of the PATRIOT act not being renewed in some form or another. The only debate is over the three more controversial provisions, some of which can definitely be used improperly. And, when you've got a President who authorized warrantless spying of any American who talks to anyone overseas, you have to make sure there's no wiggle room, because they will definitely wiggle, under the guise of "protecting Americans."
Look, I definitely want my Government spying on the "bad guys." With proper oversight, I even want them spying on Americans who interact with potential "bad guys." But it's not even like the President took this oversight (FISA) away, he just plain went around it. All that was needed was Alberto Gonzales spending ten minutes in front of a rubber stamp court to obtain a warrant, but that was too much oversight. That's where legitimate protection of Americans ends and the erosion of civil liberties begins.
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#214165 - 17/12/2005 15:07
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
That's where legitimate protection of Americans ends and the erosion of civil liberties begins.
Yeah. It's now about on par with the West's view of the former Soviet Union. Arrest and indefinite detention without trial, lawyer, or even a phone call. Secret prisons, illegal kidnappings and extraditions happening in various countries. Fictional propaganda used to invade and occupy an innocent country.
We're getting nervous up here, because we know who's next after the middle east is completely destroyed.
Help..
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#214166 - 17/12/2005 16:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
We're getting nervous up here, because we know who's next after the middle east is completely destroyed.
I'd assumed the ban on carrying lighters onto aircraft destined to the US was a precautionary measure inspired by Canada...
Rob
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#214167 - 17/12/2005 19:32
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
We're getting nervous up here, because we know who's next after the middle east is completely destroyed.
Much as I'm the first to blame Canada at every possible moment (e.g., overweight people in the U.S.? Blame Canada for poutine, a veritable heart attack on a plate and clearly just waiting to invade our country), I think Canada has a few countries ahead of it on the "who's next" parade.
- Cuba (at some point, Fidel's going to bite it, and things will get ugly)
- Venezuela (once they start accusing Chavez of planning imminent attacks...)
- Mexico (they've already built the Great Wall)
- Nigeria (so long as we're listing oil-rich countries with dubious governments...)
On the other hand, I'm wondering just how egregious North Korea's behavior needs to get before the Bush people would actually do something about it.
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#214168 - 17/12/2005 22:34
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The "infringement" you speak of is what supreme court justices call "rulings," and "rulings" become "precedents." In the 70 years you speak of, we've had courts on the left, right, and center of any issue you can think of,who have all decided that "a well regulated militia" does not constitute unfettered access to any and all firearms.
No, the infringments I speak of are Federal laws. The 1934 National Firearms Act was passed into law just like the Patriot Act. The 1934 act was ruled unconstitional in the 1930's when someone was arrested for owning a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 18 inches. The feds appealed, the case went to the supreme court, and the ruling was overturned when the defendant (a small town hillbilly who didn't have enough money for his lawyer any longer) did not show up.
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In the 70 years you speak of, we've had courts on the left, right, and center of any issue you can think of,who have all decided that "a well regulated militia" does not constitute unfettered access to any and all firearms.
Ironically, the Fed's case in 1939 in front of the Supreme Court was that the short-barrelled shotgun was not a military weapon and therefore was not protected by the second amendment.
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*Your interpretation* of the 2nd amendment has been "infringed on" for 70 years. Unless you were present at the signing of the Constitution, or are currently sitting as a judge on one of America's courts, your interpretation is no more or less valid than anyone else's.
Last time I checked, translating plain english into english was pretty easy. But I suppose Bush's "interpretation" of the Bill of Rights is no more valid than yours..
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#214169 - 17/12/2005 22:57
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Blame Canada for poutine, a veritable heart attack on a plate
Travel up North in the UK and you'll find stuff worse than Poutine. Deep fried pizza for one. You get a small frozen pizza, dip it in batter and then deep fry it. They also deep fry Mars bars as well. Not sure whether there is anything that they've not tried frying...
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#214170 - 17/12/2005 23:02
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Personally, I've heard of plenty of cases where it has been successful (and I assume there are plenty more we'll never hear about for 30 years) and very few cases of someone seriously wronged.
Please tell me about those successes. I'm sure the 600 or so people being indefinitely detained at Guantanamo without being charged with a crime, without access to any legal representation will be greatly relieved to find out that our government is taking care of us.
Guantanamo is just one of many illegal detention centers. There are thousands of people all over the world being similarly incarcerated and tortured.
How many people have actually been found guilty and convicted of terrorist acts under the ministrations of the US Secret Police (oh, excuse me, Homeland Security)? And of that number, how many were really significant threats as opposed to being run through a rubber-stamp "legal" procedure in order to boost Bush's credibility?
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I have more respect for the guys that opposed either the Patriot Act or the war in Iraq from the beginning
Well, at least we agree on something. I was against this whole adventure from the beginning. The day the Patriot Act was passed was when I started telling people, "Well, Osama won." The earliest of my posts on this bbs I could find with a quick search will support my claim to wartime opposition.
As for Bush's war on Iraq... why the hell didn't he attack Costa Rica instead? They have a much smaller army, the war would have been incomparably easier from a logistical point of view, and Costa Rica had just as much to do with the events of 9/11 as Iraq did.
Oh, and Brad -- please do not feel that I am attacking you. I have respect for you and your willingness to express your opinions when you know full well that you will take a lot of heat for it. I respect you -- just not your politics!
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#214171 - 17/12/2005 23:36
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'm sure the 600 or so people being indefinitely detained at Guantanamo without being charged with a crime, without access to any legal representation will be greatly relieved to find out that our government is taking care of us.
Doug, with all due respect, the Constitution exists to protect Americans, not foreigners who are captured in war.
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#214172 - 18/12/2005 01:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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And, when you've got a President who authorized warrantless spying of any American who talks to anyone overseas
And today he admitted it, while actually having the gall to blast the press for reporting the fact that he is breaking the law:
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our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country.
You mean like leaking the identity of CIA operatives? Funny, I thought the job of the press is to report when people in power do something illegal. He then raised the irony level to orange with this quote:
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The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Constitution to protect them and their civil liberties.
Yep, he protects your civil liberties by destroying your civil liberties. The disconnect in his brain is truly amazing. Seriously Brad, how can even you support him now after all the lying, cronyism, ineptitude, and criminal acts committed by him and his administration? I just don't get it.
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#214173 - 18/12/2005 02:25
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Doug, with all due respect, the Constitution exists to protect Americans, not foreigners who are captured in war.
So, this guy is not an American now? And since when were we at war with the UK?
And of course it seems a matter of debate about the control of the area exists. The US Government is trying to say that it is on foreign soil, thus the detainees there do not have rights they normally would have if held in an American prison.
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#214176 - 19/12/2005 01:45
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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There is only one legal term applicable to 'detainees' in Guantamo: hostages.
Perhaps, but you must understand they are there as an alternative to having been killed. The fact that there are so many prisoners of war in these recent campaigns is actually a positive statement about modern first-world military ability to control lethal force and use it only as absolutely necessary. More prisoners is better than more killed soldiers, even if not perfect.
J
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#214177 - 19/12/2005 05:26
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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That's where legitimate protection of Americans ends and the erosion of civil liberties begins.
Yeah. It's now about on par with the West's view of the former Soviet Union. Arrest and indefinite detention without trial, lawyer, or even a phone call. Secret prisons, illegal kidnappings and extraditions happening in various countries. Fictional propaganda used to invade and occupy an innocent country.
We're getting nervous up here, because we know who's next after the middle east is completely destroyed.
Help..
Spoiler:
Ubyq gvtug... V'z vasvygengvat gurz.
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#214178 - 19/12/2005 23:01
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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There is only one legal term applicable to 'detainees' in Guantamo: hostages.
Perhaps, but you must understand they are there as an alternative to having been killed. The fact that there are so many prisoners of war in these recent campaigns is actually a positive statement about modern first-world military ability to control lethal force and use it only as absolutely necessary. More prisoners is better than more killed soldiers, even if not perfect.
Except that they are not treated as POWs, and indeed most had nothing to do with war or terrorism at all. (For example, Google for Martin Mubanga. I find it incomprehensible that anyone would go to Afghanistan hoping to learn something from Taliban, but that makes hin just a fool.) Death toll among actual combatants is frighteningly high.
What you say is that resorting to terrorist acts it better than commiting war crimes. Well, it may be so, but I would not expect the "land of the free" (and its cronies, like UK or Poland) to commit either... 
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#214179 - 20/12/2005 00:46
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Perhaps, but you must understand they are there as an alternative to having been killed. The fact that there are so many prisoners of war in these recent campaigns is actually a positive statement about modern first-world military ability to control lethal force and use it only as absolutely necessary
These are not people who were captured in the heat of battle, with AK-47s smoking and grenades in their pockets.
Many (if not the great majority) of these detainees are being held because sombody told somebody else that "...I think Mustafa there is a terrorist" and the better safe than sorry attitude kicked in and off poor old Mustafa goes to the concentration camp, even though the most serious weapon he ever had was the tack hammer he used in his shoe repair shop.
Look around you, people! America used to be the most admired and respected nation on the planet. Now it is among the most despised. Using terroristic policies "because the other guys do it" is not justifiable. We used to be better than that. I really don't know whether we ever will be again.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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