using calipers I have just measured the Archos without bumpers to be 23mm (.9 inches) with bumpers to be 32mm (1.24 inches) and the Karma to be 27mm (1.1) inches. The archos is _3_ years_old_ and uses a large hard drive with _AA_batteries_ WTF?

I have snapped some shots of the karma. It is actually THICKER than the Archos. THICKER! It won't even fit in the pocket of some of my nicer work slacks. Why do companies have to lie about specs. It is nearly 20% thicker then they advertise. Is it so important for them to say it is under an inch thick?

It is nearly 20% thicker then they advertise.

That's interesting to hear. Please point to the location where the thickness is misrepresented. I'm sure the team would like to correct any misinformation.

http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_templates/item_main_Rio.asp?model=220&cat=35 right in the middle of the page. Blantant lying. Ug.

Holy cow, he's right.

Um, guys?!?!

I just posted this on the beta board. Could it be that the plastics for the first 1000 units were the plastics for the 40GB units?

That was my suspicion as well.

other people have the same issue:

http://www.riovolution.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=144

I hear you. I have reason to believe that this was a mistake rather than a lie.

The 20 gig players were supposed to be thinner than the 40s. The dimensions you're seeing on your player, are, I believe, the dimensions of the 40 player's plastic.

I'm not certain about this, so don't hold me to that.

But look on the bright side. When the 40-gig drives become available, you can put one in yourself.

Something else to consider. They might have deliberately chosen to skip the 0.9" plastic altogether, which would allow all docks to work with all players. Then they just forgot to update the marketing materials. Still a pretty bad mistake if that's what happened...

I would think it is a pretty bad mistake. This means the 20GB Karma is almost TWICE as thick as the 20GB ipod, not to mention nearly 1/2" wider. This is no way to go head to head against a market leader.

I can still remember the amazement that everyone had when it became possible to buy a brick-sized device that would play a whole 90 minutes of music.

I can still remember the amazement that everyone had when it became possible to buy a brick-sized device that would play a whole 90 minutes of music.

So do I, although I can't remember the last time my walkman just locked up.

Setting aside Rio's thickness claims for now, I'm looking at those pictures and it looks to me like Karma is overall much smaller. I don't have an Archos, so I don't know much about it, but do you often take the bumpers off in normal operation? If not, it's not really fair to compare their dimensions by taking exterior pieces off of one (as I said, though, maybe you can take them off and bumper-less is typical -- i don't know). Also, does the Archos fit in your pocket? Looking at the pictures, I would imagine probably not. Just out of curiosity, what's the battery life like on the AA's?

ms

I think the point is that the Archos is old and big and nearly half the price. The fact that the Karma is comparable in size, at least in one dimension, is not a particularly good thing.

Well, again running Rockbox (open source firmware) I routinely get 13+ hours on 4 1850mAh batteries. It is not unheard of to get over 15 hours on 4 of the newer 2100mAh batteries. My batteries are just the duracell recharbales that I got for $.79 a piece. You are right, the Archos is bigger, and you are unable to take off the bumpers, but I have dropped it numerous times (even while in-line skating) and they really do protect the device. But my Archos is OVER 3 years old. You can also buy an Archos for well under $200.

Many people are choosing between the Zen, the ipod, and the Karma, and if this was your field, then the Karma is by far the thickest and the least pocketable.

Perhaps the spec you really should be comparing is volume, not thickness. Volume is miniaturization (progress). Thickness is a design choice. Incorrect specs isn't really forgivable though.

I hate to give the kneee jerk karma-is-great answer, but I honestly didn't feel like the iPod's interface was that intuitive when I first tried one out. (Though mainly I just kept searching for the insert/append/enque menu, which didn't exist)

Matthew

Many people are choosing between the Zen, the ipod, and the Karma, and if this was your field, then the Karma is by far the thickest and the least pocketable.

I dunno... My car keys are bigger than the Karma.

I think the Karma is more pocketable than the iPod because of its other dimensions. I agree that it is thicker than the ipod, but the other dimensions of the ipod make it less pocketable in my opinion.

The Karma is 3"x3"x1.15ish" = 10.35

The ipod is 4.1"x2.4"x.62" = 6.1

Karma = brand new
ipod = 2 year birthday soon.

Karma 20: 2.7"x3.0"x0.7" = 5.67 cubic inch vol
10/15GB iPod: 2.4"x4.0"x.0.62" = 5.95 cubic inch vol
30GB iPod: 2.4"x4.0"x.73" = 7.01 cubic inch vol

Now dude, you're giving people from MI a bad name. Offer opinion, but ease up on the attitude. You can return the thing, it's only been 1 day.

EDIT: Just read the rest of the posts... interesting...

Karma 20: 2.7"x3.0"x0.7" = 5.67 cubic inch vol
10/15GB iPod: 2.4"x4.0"x.0.62" = 5.95 cubic inch vol
30GB iPod: 2.4"x4.0"x.73" = 7.01 cubic inch vol

Please I have a Karma and ipod right in front of me.

The width of the Karma is 2.9" in the skinny area to 3.1" where the wheel is. The height is 3.125, and the thickness is 1.1"

This is nearly 10 cubic inches. Much, MUCH larger in volume then the ipod. Try measuring it yourself

I don't know where you are getting your info from, but there is NO WAY the thickness can be mistaken for .7"

dam, im not hearing a lot of encouraging news..i was dying to go get this thing the day a store around me got one in. but now, man i dunno.. One reason i wanted the 20GB unit because it was slimmer.. i dont need 40GB personally.
I feel bad for poor Tony too, he is scrambling trying to defend all these issues.. not the big launch we had all hoped for thats for sure
Where is Rob? hopefully he can clear up some of these issues..

b

not the big launch we had all hoped for thats for sure

Keep in mind you're hearing the complaints of one vociferous person. It always happens with any new product... the ones with complaints are posting the most. I'm sure there are plenty of perfectly happy owners out there. I know that I'm perfectly happy with mine.

Of course, I didn't just spend four bills on mine. So he's got a right to complain if he thinks there's something to complain about.

If I am not mistaken didn't you get your's for free as a beta tester? If I got mine for free I would love it too. However I just pad $434 (with tax) Sure, the Karma is worth maybe $199. Definity not $400+.

Also, I hate when someone is part of the development process of something and counters every complaint when everyone is complaining (check the other forums). However as a User Interface developer, when I work on something day after day I get really used to something even though it may not make any sense to an untrained user.

There is a reason the ipod has won award after award for its design. Even my grandmother could pick it up and play. Apple did some serious user testing that I think Rio forgot. How many unsure computer users were involved in the beta program. How many 50+ people? Every day on the subway I see numerous people with ipods. I see no one with Archos jukeboxes. I REALLY see no one with Rio Riots.

-eric

Also, I hate when someone is part of the development process of something and counters every complaint when everyone is complaining

All right then, I'll stop replying.

I was just trying to help. Sorry.

I didn't get a freebie. Wish I had, but, that's how it goes.

Anyhow:

I REALLY see no one with Rio Riots.

Low blow. None of the people involved with that worked on the Karma.

Eric,
As someone who most definitely paid $400, I'm happy with the size/fit/function. It's worth $400 to me, but apparently not to you.

I've had mine in my pocket all day and frankly don't notice it there. The short length keeps it from jabbing me. It also sits very nicely in my car's cup holder (upper/middle dash, just below the vents) and stays there in the corners due to its short stature.

I picked mine up as cold as anyone, played with it for a few minutes and picked up the interface. It may be different from what you're used to or were expecting, but it's not difficult. I quickly saw there was a wealth of features that I could explore at my leisure.

As for the bug I encountered in the software, I guess I don't expect 1.0 of ANYTHING to be flawless. As I've been around the forum for a few years now, I know the development team is top rate and these things will be fixed, and I'm sure pretty quickly too.

As for the specs on the site being wrong, I wholeheartedly agree that that needs to be changed, but fast. I also agree with Paul's other post - opinions vary and you're free to return it. You seem really, genuinely angry that you don't like it, perhaps I'm wrong about that and am reading in to your posts. I guess I'm of the opinion that regardless of the sophistication/technology (or in your opinion, lack of sophistication) it's still, at the end of the day, a toy. If you don't like your new toy take it back, get a refund and use your Archos.

As for nobody having Riots, I would never have used one simply because of the Realplayer software. Real is the Great Satan in my opinion.

-Zeke

Tony (and those of you in the beta test), am I correct in remembering that your cases were of the thicker sort? If so, that would mean that no one has seen the smaller cases yet, right? Were yours 20GB or 40GB?

Well, the 20 and 40 are supposed to have different colors, so unless the current 20's are the wrong color, there probably isn't going to be a change....

Matthew

Greetings!

Mine is the thicker sort at 20GB. But there were two different beta releases of the hardware. The more recent is the thicker version. I do not remember actually measuring the original beta unit.

Yes, the ones we were testing were the same size as the one he got off the shelf.

The reason we didn't say anything sooner is that we were under the impression (possibly a mistaken impression, but nonetheless) that we were testing 20 drives housed in 40 plastics.

> All right then, I'll stop replying.

Oh don't listen to him Tony. I am still debating buying one and I want to hear both sides of the story. I appreciate his comments and I appreciate yours.

I as well.

me three!!

In reply to:

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Also, I hate when someone is part of the development process of something and counters every complaint when everyone is complaining (check the other forums).

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Not to counter another point , but I hope you see my responses on riovolution as informative/seeking information rather than as counters to your complaints. I take a lot of pride in the development work that I do, and when someone is unhappy, I take it to heart and I want to fix the problems where I can. I'm definitely trying to not be argumentative, and if it's coming across that way, I apologize.

f I am not mistaken didn't you get your's for free as a beta tester? If I got mine for free I would love it too.

LOL. You have obviously never worked in testing any product. If you had you would know that $400 is cheap compared to the value of the time spent on it by the beta testers.
That aside, I find your abrasive attitude througout this thread rude - and quite frankly that detracts from anything that you might say.

LOL. You have obviously never worked in testing any product. If you had you would know that $400 is cheap compared to the value of the time spent on it by the beta testers.

On one hand I know you're right, and on the other, the result was free, so it's inconvenient for the sake of bending over, I didn't even get a discount on the result

In reply to:
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Also, I hate when someone is part of the development process of something and counters every complaint when everyone is complaining (check the other forums).



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Not to counter another point , but I hope you see my responses on riovolution as informative/seeking information rather than as counters to your complaints. I take a lot of pride in the development work that I do, and when someone is unhappy, I take it to heart and I want to fix the problems where I can. I'm definitely trying to not be argumentative, and if it's coming across that way, I apologize.


I think you are doing the right thing, mschrag. If there had been no reply at all, someone would complain you guys don't care. Keep up the good work :-)

Also, I hate when someone is part of the development process of something and counters every complaint when everyone is complaining

Are they just supposed to let their work be ripped apart and not respond.

How come a circuit city in minnesota can't get one of these in stock

You always get some one that thinks something is shite I am sure there was at least two folk calling the Mk2 a completely pile of poo with the buggiest interface known to man.

I wonder if their superior home-brew car-PC's are still running?

-Zeke

Hey come on guys, you're better than this, don't belittle the man just because he's critisising those we hold in high asteem.

Eric has made a valid point on the size misrepresentation and no-one has given an acceptable answer. He has every right to be p*ssed off, I would be.

Personally I am finding the information useful.

Cheers Sim

The archos is almost .3 inches taller (Yes the black 'rubber' counts toward height). Also the Karma uses a different style of harddrive so might be a minutly thicker but it is shorter than the ipod and archos.

Also, I gave my father my karma and he loved it. He understood how to use it faster than how to use my brother's 30 gig ipod.

I also find it easier to walk with the karma in my pocket than the ipod. the ipod constantly turns sideways and puts pressure on the headphone jack. With the karma, that has never happened to me.

Blantant lying

A mistake doesn't equal a lie. That was picked up before the product launched and was supposed to have been corrected. Someone screwed up - sorry. I would exect it to be fixed on Monday.

Rob

so , was the mistake the misprint on the size? or the actual karma itself? Is there going to be a slimmer 20GB version?
or 20GB and 40GB are the same size..

b

The shipping player (20GB) is obviously the right size. The web site was wrong. I haven't seen a 40GB player so I won't comment on it.

Rob

thanks Rob, I'm still gonna buy one as soon as a dam store within 50 miles of me ever gets one in!!
I mean, how many mainstream products like this do you have access to the kind of awesome support forum here, and access to actual developers of the product, who actually listen to you.. That alone is a major plus for me..
b

Student huh?

'fess up.

man, how in the world does Concord, New Hampshire get karmas.. before NY, FL, and other Major cities, states...
dyin to pick one up already...

b

Rumor has it that Amazon and Circuit City are pretty much the only places that are getting stock from the first batch. Word to the wise.

Sure looks that way. Of course the nearest Circuit City so far is 140 miles away.

Craig Benson pulled some strings!

-Zeke

Rumor has it that Amazon and Circuit City are pretty much the only places that are getting stock from the first batch. Word to the wise.

I've lost track of which boards it's been posted on, but Fry's is also a good source in the bay area, apperently. I havn't given in to temptation yet, but if I was trying to get one this weekend that's where I'd be. It doesn't seem that any west coast circuit citys got any in.

Matthew

Yup, you're right. My source says: Circuit City, Amazon, and "Oh...and Fry's Electronics carries them too!" Best buy is slated to get them the first week of November.

I just cancelled my J&R Music World order and reordered with Amazon... They will not get theirs for at least two weeks, according to the rep I spoke to.

I think I've posted this elsewhere on other forums, but BestBuy.com is shipping them now. As proof, I present my tracking number of the Karma that I ordered on 10/01/03 (shipped 10/3):
1Z V78 55E 13 2108 715 7

Amazon did have some because I had a preorder with him with next day air and it shipped Thursday and I got it Friday. Sounds like they may already be sold out then.

I just checked the Amazon web page and they still show the 20 Gig Karma in stock.

How many 50+ people?

Slip me my beta now!

well, i just ordered one from Amazon, next day shipping
its still cheaper oppsed to walking into circuit city or best buy if they had it..
Hopefully it will arrive tomorrow.
b

Me too. I got sick of waiting for Circuit City.

well, amazon showing it already shipped. not too bad . ordered and shipped same day, cant beat amazon's service, thats for sure.. hopefully in my hands tomorrow
Does it have to be charged for like 12 hours or so the first time? man, im dyin to load it up already!
b

Instructions say charge for 5 hours, mine is charging and uploading now

Edited as I kant spel!