With the release of the Rio Karma coming up in the near future, there are a lot of Karma threads popping up. These are, of course, somewhat on topic on the empeg/riocar BBS, since the Cambridge team was involved with the Karma, and many of us who own empegs are also going to have interest in a portable player. However, I am starting to think that it might be a good idea to create two or three Karma-specific forums on the BBS to help people get to the information they want more easily.

The Rio Central and Receiver actually have their own BBS, so I guess Tom could create a Karma-only BBS... But I never really liked the idea of having separate logins, separate UI, etc. for the forums when there is going to be a lot of overlap between users. So I propose that the Forum Gods (Tom, Tony, etc.) put their heads together and come up with a new way of organizing the forums on this BBS. Something like this, maybe:

General
-- Announcements
-- Off Topic
-- For Sale
-- ICE
-- Reviews
empeg/riocar
-- General
-- Technical
-- Programming
-- Wish List
-- Bug Reports
-- Installation Notes
-- Projects
Rio Karma
-- General
-- Technical
-- Wish List
-- Bug Reports

If there is a way to bring over the Rio Central/Receiver messages and user accounts to this BBS, we could create a heading for that as well, and move those forums over. I don't know how much of a hassle that is, though, and I know Tom is kinda busy these days.

The Karma, since it's not quite as "geek-friendly" as the empeg, probably won't need as many forums. I don't see the need for a "Programming" forum for a device that doesn't run user applications, for instance. It'd also be good to get the forums set up prior to the Karma release, so that all the pre-release discussions are already in the right place.

This isn't a no-brainer, I'm afraid. Expanding the scope of these forums has some other consequences, which includes drawing a potentially large number of new users to the forums, including the "off topic" area that we treasure so much. I see this as a potentially good thing, but I just wanted to bring it up so that people don't blame me for coming up with a great idea that ruins the "culture" of the BBS. That being said, I think the net effect of expanding the BBS to include the Karma and the Receiver/Central would be positive.

So, comments?

Oh yeah, and we need a Rio Karma FAQ Master... But something tells me we won't have to look very far for a candidate with the proper credentials...

Karma forums should be seperate (possibly not even hosted by Tom). Chodes that buy the Karma would taint this board.

I think Rio handhelds already have a somewhat successful forum actually.

At first... i agreed with the idea because i hate the Rio Receiver board being seperate... mostly because i forget about it =]. But then i remembered, as rob pointed out, that the usebase for the Karma is probably going to be WAY bigger than even the empeg. This board is my last sanctuary on the web, and if was inundated with thousands more people, i would probably forsake the web forever. Okay, that's a little dramatic, but you get my point. The board would definitely be tainted by a large influx of people, even if the forums were seperated on the front page.

I vote for a seperate board.

http://www.rioworld.org/

hmmm, I'm of two minds here. I understand the whole "taint the board" thing, but being change resistant isn't a good policy for keeping something healthy. I do think that at least one section for the Karma would be good here, but that doesn't mean it has to supplant another board somewhere else. But if people here want to discuss a topic in great detail, why not make it easier for them/ us to find what we're looking for here?

Karma forums should be seperate (possibly not even hosted by Tom). Chodes that buy the Karma would taint this board.

Er, didn't you just buy one?

I get your point, and alluded to it in my post. Yes, we'd get an influx of new people, but why are we to assume they're "chodes?"

I am not suggesting this become an "all things Rio" BBS... But the Karma seems to fit in nicely with the existing products that have forums hosted here, and with the number of discussions that are already popping up about it, I thought it might be nice to have dedicated forums.

wow. the riot forum is worthless.

Empeg employees post to the Rioworld.com forum last time I saw. All the help you need with the Karma can be gotten there.

I, for one, wouldn't be disappointed to see this board's registration closed. Then, if you wanted to register, you would have to be by invitation or screened first. That may seem extreme, but I think the board is pretty exceptional the way it is and should not change too much just because the empeg team is designing all the Rio stuff now. This is the empeg bbs. Not the Empeg Ltd. BBS. Peace!

The board would definitely be tainted by a large influx of people, even if the forums were seperated on the front page.

I'm not so sure about that... Many people (myself included) feared that the forums would be tainted by the fire sale, and for awhile, there was an adjustment period... But you know what? Many of the folks that joined after getting a $199 riocar are some of our best posters here. To tell you the truth, the user base was getting stale back then, and having new people from the fire sale has made things a lot more fun.

Now, the user base is definitely not stale now, but what about in a year or two or three? I plan on my empegs lasting forever, but over time, there will be attrition as people drop off the scene. We've already had some of our most dedicated contributors leave, even though they might still own and use their empegs.

The Karma happens to be somewhere in a gray area between an empeg-like product and a conventional Rio-based handheld. I'd say that although it's a handheld, it sounds like the closest thing you'll get to having an "empeg in your pocket." So why don't we take a chance, establish some Karma forums, and see what happens? That RioWorld site has *one* thread mentioning the Karma, and I believe it was posted by one of our members from here (there aren't that many Rory's around, are there?) This seems to be the right place for a few Karma forums, and I think would be good for the culture of the BBS in the long run as well.

And if it sucks, we can always trash those forums and point people to RioWorld.. I just think it's worth taking a shot.

Er, didn't you just buy one?

Yeah, I did but I am the exception.

Yes, we'd get an influx of new people, but why are we to assume they're "chodes?"

Look at any other forum. Plus this is a device with a relatively low price that is commonly used with thefted music. What we have here is extremely unique and I wouldn't change it for the world.

To tell you the truth, the user base was getting stale back then

This is true. I remember those couple of months just before the firesale. The BBS was pretty dead.

Many people (myself included) feared that the forums would be tainted by the fire sale

I am one of the users who bought an Empeg and found this BBS through the fire sale, but I bought an Empeg, not a totally different product. The Empeg had a production run of about 4000 units (off the top of my head) and it is much more involved to install and upgrade than a portable unit. Really, how much discussion is going to occur about the Karma before most everything has been said? With the Empeg, new things are popping up all the time (Emphatic, Palantir, EmpegFace) and more could be expected because the Empeg is an extremely open platform that runs Linux, not a firmware-based portable.

After the firesale, the influx of new users made me quit reading the board for a few months... not because of the quality of the posts, but the quantity. As it is it's STILL hard to keep up with all the posts on this board on a daily basis, though it's finally starting to slow. I know two people personally who no longer come here simply because they didn't have time to keep up with all the posts. It would suck to create a new wave of people posting in the other forums. On top of that, the more people we have the more chance of trolls messing around in the other foums. We've been VERY lucky to only have a few in the history of this BBS, and i'd hate to see it go down the drain because of trolls. Yes, i'm being very pessimistic and wanting to hold on to the past and all that... but seriously, how many people on here comment every week that this is the best board on the web... EVAR. Why even CHANCE farking that up??

Just had another pessimistic thought.... we'd have a ton of new people with Karma's who probably never heard of the empeg, and would start to get interested in buying them and taking up all of our spare parts! hahah.

...open platform that runs Linux, not a firmware-based portable.

Karma is not a firmware-based portable. It is pretty-much a handheld empeg but happens to run a non-GPL'd OS (can't remeber which one).

Karma is not a firmware-based portable. It is pretty-much a handheld empeg but happens to run a non-GPL'd OS (can't remeber which one).

Ok, I stand corrected! That still doesn't mean that people could port linux packages to it (like we can do with the Empeg).

What we have here is extremely unique and I wouldn't change it for the world.

I agree. The fact that not one of us could come up with any comparable off-topic forums underscores that. Which is why I think we should try to take steps to make sure that as time goes on, the BBS still has a way to bring in new contributors. Closing user registration would be fine for a year or so, but eventually, things are going to change, and if there's no connection to a more current product, there's no way to keep things rolling with a new generation of users.

Plus this is a device with a relatively low price that is commonly used with thefted music.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I don't think you have to look too far on this BBS to find empegs with "thefted music"... And the price point angle is moot when you look at the net gain we got since the fire sale, where Mk2a's were going for far less than the MSRP of the Karma. A lot of new people came in, a few of them were clowns, and the clowns went away. The net effect was positive.

I don't think you have to look too far on this BBS to find empegs with "thefted music"...

Yeah, but the empeg community definitely has less of that element.

And the price point angle is moot when you look at the net gain we got since the fire sale

Yeah, but just buying an empeg is not the end of the purchase. You must also then buy amps, installation, and own a car (in most cases).

I don't think you have to look too far on this BBS to find empegs with "thefted music"...

*whistles innocently.. Moves on..*

Anyways, at first I thought it was a good idea, but.. not too sure now. We WILL have alot of peeps what have the Karma that aren't as 'geeky' as us.
This means that we'd have alot of people asking FAQ questions (even if we HAD a FAQ.. they'd ask anyways..); we'd have alot of folks thinking it was some sort of "support" forums. and so on.. Not to mention Karma people going into the Empeg forums and asking questions about that, etc etc..

Me.

Really, how much discussion is going to occur about the Karma before most everything has been said?

Well, that's why in my original statement I didn't have ten Karma forums, just four. The last two being very worthwhile, since I doubt the first generation of Karmas will be perfect, and this would provide a place to collect good ideas for improvements, as well as a place to discuss any bugs. I think that as long as the Karma is the top-of-the-line portable that we think it's going to be, there will be enough to talk about. There are active iPod forums, after all, and the Karma is supposed to be the iPod killer.

How about this then...

If we are to have a Karma forum, make it only visible once you are signed in. That way, google is unlikely to pick it up and when someone types in 'Karma forums', they don't get a hit here. We would still get to talk about it in a sane manner, but would be somewhat seperate from the average 16-year old downloading Marilyn Manson from Kazaa.

i very much like that idea, except for the bit where you seem to be ripping on marilyn manson listeners
:P

Anyways, at first I thought it was a good idea, but.. not too sure now. We WILL have alot of peeps what have the Karma that aren't as 'geeky' as us.

The Karma seems to be geeky enough that the geekdom of this BBS is tripping over one another trying to order one...

If we are to have a Karma forum, make it only visible once you are signed in.

That's not a bad compromise. That'd allow our Karma threads to be in the right place without affecting our other forums, but wouldn't attract the Johnny-Come-Latelies that everyone seems to be scared of. I still don't see what the big deal is, I mean, the iPod forums don't seem to be overrun with too many schmucks, and we could always protect our existing Off Topic forums or restrict access to "old school playas" from the current user base... There are other options, I just thought it was a good time to start thinking of those options.

After the firesale, the influx of new users made me quit reading the board for a few months...

Gotta agree with Loren. It took about a year after the firesale for this bbs to settle down to the point where I could follow most of the forums again. It is obviously beneficial to have some influx of new users, but inviting in thousands of karma owners doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think we would lose a lot of the current regulars as the post ratio began to lean towards more Karma discussions (I for one have no immediate plans to purchase a Karma and therefor not much interest in reading discussions about them).

-Mike

I was generally against this idea, but

Mk2a's were going for far less than the MSRP of the Karma. A lot of new people came in, a few of them were clowns, and the clowns went away. The net effect was positive.

is a very good point.

inviting in thousands of karma owners doesn't sound like the best idea to me.

Well it sounds like there will be at least a couple hundred Karma owners pretty soon, and that's with no change to the existing user base... Wouldn't it be nice if those threads were in their own little forum that non-Karma owners could choose to ignore? Or just visit on occasion?

I think we would lose a lot of the current regulars as the post ratio began to lean towards more Karma discussions

Again, the Karma discussions will be in the Karma General forum, or the Karma Technical forum. empeg discussions will be in the empeg General forum or the empeg Technical forum. The empeg forums might have a few Karma noobs poking around, but in general, they aren't going to care about what goes on in the empeg forums.

If anything, my intention with this was to *preserve* the integrity of the existing Empeg forums, by having a separate place for Karma stuff to go. In so doing, I thought it'd be interesting to see if we can't *benefit* from the fact that Rio is releasing another cutting-edge product.

While I do like the idea of having sections devoted to the Rio Karma, I do have to wonder what additional load it would put on the servers. The additional bandwith and CPU resources might make the board more noticible on its current host, and could make the free hosting offer run out.

I would have to address this situation with the person who is responsible for paying the bills before any official decision on my part can be made.

For the record, unification of user logins across riocar.org, this BBS and the RioReceiver has always been a goal of mine.

you seem to be ripping on marilyn manson listeners

No worries. I myself like Marilyn Manson a lot.

Wouldn't it be nice if those threads were in their own little forum that non-Karma owners could choose to ignore?

Agreed, and I am warming to the idea of having a separate karma forum that does not show up until you are logged in as somebody suggested.

Again, the Karma discussions will be in the Karma General forum, or the Karma Technical forum. empeg discussions will be in the empeg General forum or the empeg Technical forum.

That is the optimistic viewpoint that assumes the majority of Karma owners will be intelligent enough to figure out where to post. Plus you still have the issue of a lot of extra posts to the shared forums which would likely drive down the signal to noise ratio there.

-Mike

For the record, unification of user logins across riocar.org, this BBS and the RioReceiver has always been a goal of mine.

Yes, please, please, please...