#162851 - 27/05/2003 14:16
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hmmm, I’d have to say I’d agree with Bitt here: the law should be about what society collectively agrees is right or wrong; it should not be used as a tool to weed out those who don’t have the abilities to break it without being caught. Ok, well maybe that isn’t exactly what he’s been getting at, but for me I think that making laws that aren’t supposed to be followed by everyone is an abuse of our legal system.
I personally don’t speed much in town, if at all, even when I’m on the free way. About the only time I do is when I’m on the open freeway traveling in between cities. I personally feel good about 70 mph limits, but I know this isn’t universally true. When you have an area where everyone wants to go faster, including the police, why make limits that everyone wants to break? I know you’ll argue that it’s in people’s nature to break limits (with which I’ll agree), but there are some limits that everyone seems to feel are ludicrous. Last year they set Houston’s limits back to 55mph and I had a real struggle trying not to speed, as did everyone I talked to (after about six months they moved it back up). But like I said earlier, here in San Antonio I hardly ever speed and a large number of cars around me seem to drive within the speed limit as well. This would suggest that there are reasonable limits that a large portion of people could abide.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#162852 - 27/05/2003 14:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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don't mind the speed limit as long as people observe MY speed limit
As George Carlin said... "You ever notice out on the freeway, anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anybody going faster than you is a maniac?"
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#162853 - 27/05/2003 14:19
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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You ever notice out on the freeway, anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anybody going faster than you is a maniac? Heh, tried to point this out to my wife once during one of her many driving rants. Bad idea . . 
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#162854 - 27/05/2003 14:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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I think it has more to do with the fact that speed limits are unrealistically low than because people will always exceed the speed limit. - bitt
It's my opinion that people will always try to exceed whatever limits are set. It's human nature. - tfabris I know that the reason I go anywhere from 5 - 15 mph over the peed limit is because 9 out of 10 times or more I can pass a cop going that much over without fear of being pulled over. The other times I hope that my reflexes will be enough to slow me down to just 5-10 over before the cop looks up. I think that if they raised the speed limits to, say, 90 and then ticketed anyone going 5 or more over the limit then that would prevent a lot of people from speeding. I think a lot of people speed because it's generally accepted that you can speed within reason. It is much more rare that I see someone going more than 15mph over the limit (i.e. see someone passing me) just for that reason.
- trs
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- trs
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#162855 - 27/05/2003 14:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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It's my opinion that people will always try to exceed whatever limits are set. It's human nature.
This is not correct.
Many different studies (here is just the first one Google brought up) have demonstrated time and time again that the "85th percentile rule" is ubiquitous. In summary, the speed that about 85% of the drivers employ (+/- 5%), even in an unregulated enviornment, is the optimum speed for any particular road in terms of both traffic flow and safety. In other words, the great majority (like about 85%  ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits.
Speed does not kill. It's speed differential that is dangerous. Somebody driving at the legal 55 MPH speed limit when 85% of the traffic is moving 15--20 MPH faster is far more likely to cause an accident than the person driving illegally at 80 MPH.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#162856 - 27/05/2003 15:02
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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the great majority (like about 85% ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits. Vindication!
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Bitt Faulk
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#162857 - 27/05/2003 15:05
Re: Speeding
[Re: davec]
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enthusiast
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 290
Loc: Denver, CO
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I got tagged for 2 frickin turn signal violations while I was going to school in Austin...rookie cops 'upholding the law'
My car insurance rate loved that 
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-Jason
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#162858 - 27/05/2003 15:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Haha, very true. Although I never said anything about the people driving faster than me, did I? So my statement wasn't hypocritical at all. The line is good, though
And just so you know, I tend to drive in the left lane with the faster traffic, but if there's nobody in front of me and someone is coming up behind me, I get over. I do exactly what I would have others do.
I do call some people maniacs, but those are not the people simply driving fast, they're the people driving dangerously. If someone is doing a lot of lane changes and cutting people off, that's a maniac. Though someone going 30mph faster than all other traffic is also a maniac, IMO
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Matt
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#162859 - 27/05/2003 15:29
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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In other words, the great majority (like about 85% ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits. Then please explain the observed behavior I've seen, on the same freeway (interstate 80 between my home and Sacramento), as the speed limits were changed:
- When the speed limit was 55, the average traffic speed was 65-70.
- Now that the speed limit is 65, the average traffic speed is 75-80.
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#162860 - 27/05/2003 16:25
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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10-15 over the limit is about what anyone willing to speed is probably willing to risk ticket wise?
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#162861 - 27/05/2003 20:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: loren]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Or the fact that 25 over becomes a misdemeanor, not just a traffic violation? I once had to court for doing 50 in a 25. I was the only person in the room that plead guilty. Know what my fine was? $60.50. Gotta love Alabama.
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#162862 - 27/05/2003 20:47
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Actually, this is a potential reason not to increase the speed limits. Not because people are too stupid to accelerate on them (which they are), but because some of them are so short as to make it difficult to accelerate to traffic speed before being forced to merge now. This right here is a big problem in Colorado Springs at one intersection. It is under construction and the entrance ramp is rather short, due to a bridge shortly after it forcing people to merge (5 lanes on the bridge right now and the median, bridge will eventually hold 3 normal lanes). Speed limit in that area is 45, but people average 65-70 due to it being about a mile away from where the limit was 75 for those traveling between Colorado Springs and Denver.
Police set up speed traps there with 4 motorcycle cops and have no downtime. After seeing some of the accidents there from people unable to go anywhere when things go bad, I always slow to 50 max, and usually sit in the left lane. It's pissed quite a few people off, but it prevented a few people from causing more accidents.
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#162863 - 27/05/2003 20:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#162864 - 27/05/2003 23:21
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Then please explain the observed behavior I've seen, on the same freeway (interstate 80 between my home and Sacramento), as the speed limits were changed:
- When the speed limit was 55, the average traffic speed was 65-70.
- Now that the speed limit is 65, the average traffic speed is 75-80. Because in California, cops typically won't bother pulling you over if you're only doing 10-15 over. Cop tolerance for speeding seems to depend on the region. Last time I was in Detroit, it seemed like it was 5-7 over. Along the 401 in Ontario, it seemed like it was 15-20Km/h. My preferred speed on roads that can handle it is between 110-120Km/h, decreasing as road conditions deteriorate. It has nothing to do with the posted limit -- that's just a reasonable compromise between what my truck can handle, and not burning through gas at an even more unreasonable rate than what the truck does normally.
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#162865 - 27/05/2003 23:37
Re: Speeding
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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#162867 - 28/05/2003 04:26
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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The Association of British Drivers has this interesting page on the subject of speeds and limits. I think it is fully relevant to the US situation as well.
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#162868 - 28/05/2003 06:54
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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0-15 over the limit is about what anyone willing to speed is probably willing to risk ticket wise? Or the fact that 25 over becomes a misdemeanor, not just a traffic violation? Vindication! I don't see how. Now you're claiming that the reason not to raise speed limits is because significantly violating the speed limit is a crime?
That's like saying prostitution should remain illegal because if you turn tricks you'll go to jail.
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Bitt Faulk
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#162869 - 28/05/2003 07:03
Speed traps
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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The radar detector is only one tool, and it does not usually come into play when referring to the kind of speeding we're talking about here.
Just because I have, mmm..., a little too much experience with this: please be careful with this attitude in VA and NC. I go back and forth between DC and NC all winter long (season tickets for Duke basketball games) and lots of the rest of the year to see family and the beaches and mountains of NC, and have seen most of their shenanigans on a lot of both states' highways.
VA State Police have standing speed traps on the interstates (almost always in the median crossover spots). They're generally easy to avoid if you interpret the "Authorized Vehicle Only" signs at the crossover spots as "Speed Trap Lurks Here" and slow down a bit.
NC can be vicious at 10-15 mph over - unmarked State Troopers surf from the other direction, using instant on, but using it so rarely you frequently have no warning. Oh, and by unmarked: I've seen them use a 12 year old, three model out of date Caprice they'd mothballed. Standard license plate. No visible markings, lights or antennae until he lit up like the cliched Christmas tree. Fortunately it wasn't me, but a car a 1/2 mile in front of me. Mid 80's Mustangs still make me tense up. And, of course, this is the state that used Volkswagon Rabbits way back when, too.
I don't know if it's true or not, but a lawyer friend of mine in California tells me that the state appropriates money for "Speed Checked by Radar" signs on the freeways, but doesn't actually give CHP money to actually buy radar guns. Nice state.
-jk
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#162870 - 28/05/2003 07:35
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Obviously, ideal speed on that particular strech of road is at least 75-80, but people are reluctant to drive as fast if that would put them in danger of serious fine. I know of long streches of two-lane roads in Croatia where one can safely do 90 mph (and, according to movies I saw, there are plenty of them in the States); however, I limit myself to around 10 over (that is, 70 or so), because that's the point where fines bacome steeper. There are other streches, OTOH, where I don't reach posted limit because I don't feel comfortable with it.
About your 'being alert' theory: I agree, of course, that driving in any kind of demanding environment calls for constant situational awareness (e.g. one has to be aware of vehicles behind and in adjacent lanes to one's own, so that in the case of a need for quick evasive maneuver no checking is required). However, scanning all 'generic cruisers' for telltale signs of constabular occupation, discriminating various misterious pole-mounted devices, scrutinizing overpasses and checking roadside foliage for hidden Bad Blue Boys* is distracting per se.
It is reckless driving that kills (which comes in many forms), not speed as such. It is absolutely inexcusable to use traffic violation fines as fiscal instrument (that is, local government budget fodder), instead of strictly safety enhancing measure. Isn't it a duty of city and county officials (and police departments) to promote both traffic safety and usability of roads? Hmm, I wonder is there a lucrative lawsuit somewhere there....
*) BBB was originaly the name of best Zagreb soccer team's (Dinamo) fan club (blue jerseys, obviously). Nowadays it is also used for police (dark blue uniforms).
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
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#162871 - 28/05/2003 09:06
Re: Speeding
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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As a former Chief of Police, I agree with your assertion that speeding tickets are an accepted method of generating revenue for many municipalities. IMHO, one of the benefits of law enforcement as a career is the ability to use discretion to accomplish the mission (of public safety). I, for one, NEVER stopped a car for exceeding the speed limit by less than 15mph and the normal result was a written warning (unless the driver was a total jackass -- some people work so hard at getting a ticket it is almost a shame not to give them one for their efforts). Why? Because I routinely exceed the posted speed limit by around 10mph in non-residential areas and refused to be a hypocrite. That, however, was the way that I chose to conduct business and is not by any means the norm within the law enforcement community. In my case, I not only refused to be a part of a municipal revenue generation machine but I did not allow my officers to do so either. Additionally, I endeavored to hire officers who came equipped with common sense and not some of the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies. Again this was my professional philosophy and was one that was not necessarily shared by my law enforcement executive peers. My point in saying all of this is that (much like any other profession) the law enforcement field is made up of individuals and, as such, does not lend itself to broad characterizations of the people who have chosen that vocation. When you say that you “would have more respect for police if” they did something differently, please remember that there exists a silent majority of law enforcement officers out there who are doing tremendous job of keeping you and your communities safe under less than ideal working conditions. Unfortunately, because these officers are generally otherwise engaged in what I would characterize as “real police work” (i.e. the handling of crimes v. conducting routine traffic enforcement), they are not encountered nearly as often by the general motoring public. Now that I have uncloaked and revealed myself as someone with a law enforcement background I expect that the flames are not far behind but I felt that the point needed to be made.
Donning fire retardant gear now…
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[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
02 Cadillac Escalade
60gb MkIIa - Blue
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#162872 - 28/05/2003 09:14
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Boo! Hiss!
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#162873 - 28/05/2003 09:18
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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driving in any kind of demanding environment calls for constant situational awareness
Just a question for those in Europe: I remember when I was visiting relatives in Germany that whenever we would drive somewhere, that is all that was going on... driving. Especially when on the Autobahn doing 260 km/h. The movie "The Transporter" reminded me of this when the main character (Jason Statham) stops during his drive to drink a fruit juice and eat a muffin. In the US we would be eating that in the car while talking on the phone and cueing up another playlist on our Empegs.
I've often heard the statistic that there are fewer accidents on the Autobahn, although the accidents that happen are normally deadlier. Is this because the emphasis is on driving only, and not having other distractions in the car like food, etc. I know that while the Empeg team designed the Empeg so the visuals do not default to on in the car, many US based head unit makers are creating more and more visualizations that are on all the time by default. We also have drive-thru fast food restaurants, drive up ATM's, drive through liquor stores, drive through convinience stores, drive-thru weddings (Las Vegas), sex in the car, etc.
OR, is it the longer driver education classes in Europe that contribute to safer driving?
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#162874 - 28/05/2003 09:29
Re: Speeding
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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drive-thru weddings (Las Vegas), sex in the car And it doesn't end there...
Peter
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#162875 - 28/05/2003 09:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I have a couple of friends who are in the law enforcement community who do not meet the typical stereotype of cops. However: the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies
...
the law enforcement field is made up of individuals and, as such, does not lend itself to broad characterizations of the people who have chosen that vocation. I think you contradict yourself. Not to say that all cops have a chip on their shoulders (as you put it), but many do. I think that that's a common mindset that leads people to the occupation of law enforcement. It' also may be one that develops dealing with scum, as I'm sure they deal with such types more often than the rest of us (or maybe not).
Out of curiosity, what was the size of your police force and the size of the municipality you served? And why are you a former Chief of Police?
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Bitt Faulk
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#162876 - 28/05/2003 09:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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The Association of British Drivers has this interesting page on the subject of speeds and limits. I think it is fully relevant to the US situation as well.
That is a GREAT link. . . everyone discussing this should read it... it's got stats for the US as well.
"A comparison of international motorway speed limits and fatality rates is shown on the chart below. It is quite apparent that there is no correlation between the two. The United States, with one of the lowest motorway speed limits, has an almost identical fatality rate to Germany, with no limit. There are clearly far more significant factors than speed that must explain the large differences in fatality rates between countries."
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#162877 - 28/05/2003 10:13
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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I don't think that I contradicted myself at all. I noted that the "more robotic types" populated many "agencies" with no reference to their numbers within those agencies (i.e. inferring that the problem was one that was faced by many departments). That particular comment was in keeping with my thoughts on the importance of hiring and retaining individuals (to the extent possible) who do not demonstrate a predisposition toward that mindset.
As to my background, I spent 15 years working for the Baltimore City Police Department in numerous capacities (mostly with investigative focus – I left as a Detective in the Homicide Unit) before taking a position as Chief of Police in a suburb of Madison, WI. My agency had 15 sworn officers and served a population of approximately 5000 citizens.
Finally, I am a “former” Chief of Police because I accepted a senior executive service level position with a program of the US Department of Justice in early 2000.
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[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
02 Cadillac Escalade
60gb MkIIa - Blue
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#162878 - 28/05/2003 10:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Additionally, I endeavored to hire officers who came equipped with common sense and not some of the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies. Again this was my professional philosophy and was one that was not necessarily shared by my law enforcement executive peers. This is very cool. The situation you describe was echoed in the book I read on the topic. The authors were quick to point out that all police officers are different, and that some were sticklers about speed and others were not. They even had an extensive discussion (which I took with a grain of salt) about how to judge the character of the officer who pulled you over.
Their reasoning was that the officer might be one of the "chip on his shoulder" types, in which case you would need to take a different conversational stance than you would with a more laid-back person, in attempting to talk your way out of a ticket.
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#162879 - 28/05/2003 11:02
Re: Speed traps
[Re: jmwking]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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They're generally easy to avoid if you interpret the "Authorized Vehicle Only" signs at the crossover spots as "Speed Trap Lurks Here" and slow down a bit. There are some spots on I-80 near Truckee that are exactly like this. You're right that radar traps do sometimes get used on interstates and that a radar detector is still useful in that situation.
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#162880 - 28/05/2003 11:07
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I don't see how. Now you're claiming that the reason not to raise speed limits is because significantly violating the speed limit is a crime? That's not what I was trying to say. I was jokingly saying that my premise (people will always exceed the speed limit by approximately 10mph regardless of what that limit is) was vindicated by the statements about fine-fear in the thread.
However, there is enough statistical evidence linked in this thread, including the link to the British site, which clearly states my premise is provably incorrect, so I withdraw it.
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