#146947 - 05/03/2003 13:06
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: Roger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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the rules of English grammar are obscenely complicated to begin with
So are the rules of cricket, but if you want to play...
Wow... I need to write that one down somewhere. Clever.
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#146948 - 05/03/2003 13:09
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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#146949 - 05/03/2003 13:11
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: Roger]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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So are the rules of cricket
Like this?
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#146950 - 05/03/2003 13:16
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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And this is excusable why? Because not everyone on this BBS is as educated or naturally intelligent as everyone else on the BBS, Ah, now this puts me in mind of an argument for good grammar. I think this applies to the internet in general...
Here on the BBS, our words are the only thing that others see about "us", about who we are. They don't see our demeanor, they don't hear our voices, they can't see what we're really like. All they see is the words.
So, when someone writes with poor grammar, it gives us a "first impression" of lack-of-education and/or lack-of-intelligence. Even though neither of those things is necessarily related to grammar. There was one BBS user who simply typed very fast and didn't bother to correct typos. Then I got a chance to meet him in person, and he was very intelligent and well educated.
It's even harder for people with English as a second language. When reading messages from a non-english speaker, I have to deliberately try to overcome that "first impression". It has to be a conscious effort, or I slip into judging them on their command of the English language.
Technology has allowed us to connect to people across great distances. Now we need to learn how it colors our perceptions of others...
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#146951 - 05/03/2003 13:40
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Safari has tabs?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#146952 - 05/03/2003 13:54
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: butter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Since I have a huge and obvious bias, I'm mostly going to just stay out of this one, but I'd like to point your attention to the extreme opposite bias: Free Speling.
And my one comment against it: ``speling'' would be pronounced as ``speeling'', as it would be a gerund of the verb ``to spele'', English words usually have very straightforward rules for spelling and pronunciation; mostly only the words imported from elsewhere have odd spellings or pronunciations (depending on which way you look at it). Unfortunately, those words are not few.
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Bitt Faulk
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#146953 - 05/03/2003 14:21
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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There was one BBS user who simply typed very fast and didn't bother to correct typos. Then I got a chance to meet him in person, and he was very intelligent and well educated.
Ah! HighWayDrifter... haven't heard from him in about two and a half years now. Suffered from something called "finger agnosia", making his typed efforts difficult to decipher.
Isn't it scary that I would remember this stuff? 
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#146954 - 05/03/2003 16:33
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Safari has tabs?
It will shortly. Leaked betas have it, once enabled via the debug menu. Initial implementation still lacks a way of opening a new tab via a simple middle click, but I haven't sug around for a newer beta.
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#146955 - 05/03/2003 16:35
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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While we're talking about pie...
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-- roger
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#146956 - 06/03/2003 00:26
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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the rules of English grammar are obscenely complicated to begin with So are the rules of cricket, The rules may be complicated, but the game is easy to explain: You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When both sides have been in and out including the not outs, that's the end of the game.
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#146957 - 06/03/2003 01:29
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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And, to be honest, the rules of English grammar are obscenely complicated to begin with, and I think that a lot of the "mistakes" people make which sneak their way into the langauge are just a natural part of the evolution of the language itself.
English is a horrible language to be the "language of the internet". It's worked well for me, but I recognize the sheer nastiness of it.
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#146958 - 06/03/2003 06:30
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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English is a horrible language to be the "language of the internet". It's worked well for me, but I recognize the sheer nastiness of it.
Yes...I agree. I firmly believe that we should all switch to PERL.
_________________________
~ John
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#146959 - 06/03/2003 09:04
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: JBjorgen]
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addict
Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
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In reply to:
And, to be honest, the rules of English grammar are obscenely complicated to begin with
In relation to what? Mandarin or Tamil? Every language that isn't your native tongue seems complicated. In fact your own seems complicated if you actually think about it too hard. It's a lot like playing NightFire on the PS2 or typing this message, if I actually think about each keystroke and button press I'd never get anywhere. Languages have to be some what complicated based on the complexity of what they are created for and the length of time for which they are used.
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Michael West
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#146960 - 06/03/2003 10:00
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: revlmwest]
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member
Registered: 25/10/1999
Posts: 149
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Beeing one of the non-native english speakers on this BBS, I feel the need to state that I would not mind at all if I were corrected and gently (or even not so gently, I can take quite a bit  ) pushed in the right direction. In fact it's a couple of years ago that I was taught the rules of english grammar. The use of the language has become somewhat automatic, just like Reverend Michael West describes.
However, as soon as one starts to use a language naturally(with which I mean thinking in the other language rather than modelling a sentence in your native language and then translating it), one starts to develop bad habits, that are hard to get rid of... even harder if you don't know about them. I havn't used a spell checker until now(which will change in the near future), but I did proof-read my posts. I do realize that correcting every one of my mistakes would be a full time job and I agree with _ynot's point that it would seriously contribute to the noise level.
But beeing told about unbearable faux pas, would surely have positive impact on my future posts. 
Oh, and as a side note ... I found French grammar to be much more complex than the english equivalent.
EDIT: Typo
Edited by 753 (06/03/2003 10:07)
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Thomas
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#146961 - 06/03/2003 10:14
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: 753]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I've altogether been mightily impressed with the English skill of almost all of the people on this board who profess not to speak English natively, yourself included. In fact, it is all but perfect.
Contrasting you guys with the non-native English speakers I deal with on a regular basis (Chinese, Korean, Russan, various Arabs) in my job as a computer guy, who, for the most part, live in the US and spend most of their day speaking English, is like comparing William Safire to a doorknob. Actually, you're better than most of the native English speakers I deal with. I found French grammar to be much more complex than the english equivalent. Burn!
France surrenders.
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Bitt Faulk
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#146962 - 06/03/2003 21:30
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I firmly believe that we should all switch to PERL.
You do mean Perl, don't you?
> perldoc -q '"perl" and "perl"'
Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/pod/perlfaq1.pod
What's the difference between ""perl"" and ""Perl""?
One bit. Oh, you weren't talking ASCII? :-) Larry now
uses "Perl" to signify the language proper and "perl" the
implementation of it, i.e. the current interpreter. Hence
Tom's quip that "Nothing but perl can parse Perl." You
may or may not choose to follow this usage. For example,
parallelism means "awk and perl" and "Python and Perl"
look OK, while "awk and Perl" and "Python and perl" do
not. But never write "PERL", because perl isn't really an
acronym, apocryphal folklore and post-facto expansions
notwithstanding.
(This *is* a thread about gently correcting, right?)
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#146963 - 07/03/2003 09:29
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Yeah...I suppose the Practical Extraction and Report Language acronym no longer really applies.
I stand corrected.
_________________________
~ John
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#146964 - 07/03/2003 11:56
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I would prefer that peoples' ideas were reflected here regardless of how well they did in English class. I agree. However, if you follow the subthread most concisely viewed in these two posts (that's two different links), you'll see that ignoring grammar makes one's ideas difficult to express. Neither of the parties involved (FerretBoy and trs24) did anything very wrong. trs24 used the correct verb ``can'' (assuming I'm correct in his intentions), and FerretBoy made the mistake of assuming he meant ``may'', since the meanings of those two words have become muddied.
The fact that people in prior times refused to learn how to use those words properly means that no one now can expect anyone to use them properly, and it thus becomes more difficult to express your views concisely and concretely. That's why good grammar should always be used. Because it allows one to effectively express his idea.
Of course, that doesn't help when one reneges on his promise not to get involved, but I thought the example was too applicable and contemporaneous to ignore.
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Bitt Faulk
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#146965 - 07/03/2003 11:59
Re: For wfaulk and the rest of us...
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Well said.
_________________________
Brad B.
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