Thought I'd post this as it might be of interest to you lot

http://public.fotki.com/altman/cars/noble_bits/

Rather a work in progress, but to solve the problem of not being able to mount my empeg in view of the driver in my new car (well, the one which will hopefully arrive in 6 months or so), I've put a small VFD actually inside the revcounter.

More pics when I've finished it. Basically it's a monochrome (no greyscales) 128x32 VFD module from Itron hooked up to the serial port of the empeg with some software changes (though it's simple enough to go into Hijack if required). Currently you only get about 3 frames per second, but I'll sort that out before it gets installed

Hugo

Any chance that you'd also publish the schematic for the interface so that I can update this and this?

The schematic is as simple as a 5v power supply and a 5v<>RS232 level converter (ie, a MAX232). The module has a standard 19200bps serial interface to it.

I'm planning to move to a 115200bps link to another microcontroller (probably a mitsubishi 16c62 series - though if I told you what else that was going to appear in, I'd have to kill you) which will then drive the display over SPI - either that or I'll drive the display direct and try and get greyscales.

Hugo

Hmmm. I was thinking of putting a real real turbo gauge in my car since the stock one is driven of the engine control computer and is simply there for eye candy. Adding this to that would be hella dope.

i have not the words.

Oh my, I so want this.

Thought I'd post this as it might be of interest to you lot

Holy [censored] [censored]!

You've been watching _Scanners_ again.

Twisted, sick, I love it!!! Now, if you can rig a heads-up display, so it doesn't need a dask gauge retrofit and can be done easily...

Umm... dude you have way too much time on your hands. But I love it

flash b**tard

I hope when finished you'll be making this available to buy. My car has a cover for the radio area which I usually keep shut, so it would be nice to be able to see the track info etc somewhere else

A noble way cool have to find a link so our american friends know what it is

its http://www.noblecars.com

Oh my.

Pretty nice little vehicle there, indeed.

At around how much does one of those babies sticker? $80,000 - $100,000 I'd guess?

John

Still excited by this.

How cool would it be to have the option of remote mounting the empeg with this in the instument panel and using steering wheel controls. (Of course this has been discussed before, now it's much more realistic to consider.)

(Be even cooler if the display were 2BPP, but still, that's pretty bad ass Hugo...)

John

At around how much does one of those babies sticker? $80,000 - $100,000 I'd guess?

I'm not sure which one Hugo's getting (they've announced a convertible now, hint hint Hugo) but the basic one "stickers at" about £45,000, so say $70,000.

Peter

It's just a Mondeo in disguise!

Impressive.
What sort of cost are we talking about here?
And what options? would it be possible to drive a serial LCD module?

Hey!, so why the Noble then, I much prefer the T350, but then again I would say that

OK, so I looked at your Motorshow pics, so shoot me

is it possible to inverse the display so you can put on top of the dash and reflect it off your windshield, ala transparent empeg?

don't even have to look away from the road anymore. not even down to the meters =)

Hugo, just don't do this with it!

Gareth

Hugo... what color?!

They start at about US$70k, depending on the exchange rate. Rumoured 0-60 sprint times for the newer 3 litre twin turbos is 3.5 seconds

Hugo

Well, it's going to be Monaco Blue Pearlescent, which incidentally is that amazing blue you get on the 2002 Honda/Acura NSX; didn't much fancy any of the stock colours, fingers crossed I found the right paint code to give to the factory

Hugo

Niiiiice. Wow. That's it, i'm coming to Cambridge just to get a ride in that sucker when you get it. So nice.

Oh man I want this! Please say you will be selling these.

That install is awesome. With some basic voice activated commands... sorry, just dreaming again

Paddle shifters?

Z~

Now that I started to think about it, that display would fit right where my onstar buttons reside in the dash. And the empeg could be controlled by the steering wheel. hmmm....

Nice. I do hope you've got the right paint code though otherwise it could be interesting when your florescent pink Noble with go-faster-stripes turns up

- Trevor

it's going to be Monaco Blue Pearlescent

While we're on the subject of -escent paint jobs, who else has seen the iridescent paint on some new TVRs? I saw one that looked iridescent gold coming towards you but turned to iridescent purple as it went past. Crazy stuff.

Peter

Not planning on selling them (but once I have it finished, I might negotiate with someone else to sell them) but if you want the display with serial input it's part number GW128x32C-K610A from www.itron.com.

I ordered from the UK guys (who actually designed the PCB & micro that the glass sits on) and they take credit cards; the displays are £69.57 each, plus VAT.

I (very carefully) removed the display from the PCB and attached it via a short ribbon cable, as there wasn't room for the PCB inside the revcounter at the preferred location - this will obviously void any warranty on the display if you do it with yours!

Remember the serial is at TTL levels, so you'll need both a 5v PSU and a MAX232 level shifter to hook it to the empeg serial.

Hugo

? http://www.itron.com is a company that makes meters. Did you mean http://www.noritake-itron.com/ ?

- Trevor

Well we can hope that when Patrick has finished the tuner shipments, that maybe he'll take this on :-)

Hugo, do you know off hand if Noritake has a larger VFD display that will work in place of the GW128x32C?

and, in a few sentences or less, what the technical challenges of using a 2BPP grayscale display of any sort in place of that one? I'd pay a good deal (but not ridiculously) more for that i'd think.

They do one the size of the empeg display, I believe with greyscale support too (it's a newer module - greyscaling was built into the drivers a year or so ago). Not sure on the part number, it should be on their site.

As for greyscaling on the small display; the small display is very bright because it's not a multiplexed display - it's a phosphor on silicon display. Instead of scanning, a lit pixel is lit continuously. It'd be possible to do greyscales by driving the glass directly, but it'd probably be non-trivial as a task.

Hugo

In reply to:

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and, in a few sentences or less, what the technical challenges of using a 2BPP grayscale display of any sort in place of that one? I'd pay a good deal (but not ridiculously) more for that i'd think

---

IMHO, since Hugo has modified some sofware to pipe the display over the serial to the display, *ANY* display that can accept serial input can be used. Now, the protocol would have to be changed - that is, how to represent on/off bits over the serial port (or On/Dim2/Dim1/Off; etc) would just have to be changed..

Me.

In reply to:

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Remember the serial is at TTL levels, so you'll need both a 5v PSU and a MAX232 level shifter to hook it to the empeg serial.

---

Could you help on this? I'm extremely interested in getting something like this up and running (hell, I just bought a display. Heh.). I can do the software (All *I* need/want is song info, visuals can stay down on the player.), just not too good with making new circuits. I figure I can get the 5v from the car's mains (using a VR and some resistors to keep it down), but not sure what else is required for the MAX232.. I have a Mini (pics below), and I have a perfect place to mount it - right in FRONT of the Tach, behind the steering wheel. As close to a HUD as a Mini can get.

max232

Does figure 4 help at all?

Oooh... yes...
Mmmm... Technical data.. That is just about all I need, actually. I do have a question, maybe Hugo can help..
What's the Vs- and Vs+ (-8.5/+8.5)v used for? If it only required the 5v, easy as pie, since I'd only be dealing with one V source. But.. how the hell do I get a -8.5 supply from a 12V DC source? Ermf. (OR are those outputs, generated FROM the 5V?)

Me.

Use a MAX332. It's the same as a MAX232 but it doesn't need any external components so it's simpler to use. RS Components and Maplin both stock it. It's a bit more expensive than a MAX232 though.

The MAX232 and MAX233 both only need a 5V DC supply. The MAX232 needs 4 external capacitors to work whilst the MAX233 doesn't.

- Trevor

As I've been taught by the people on this BBS: you can run 12V from you're car thru a 5V regulator to either the MAX232 or Max233. The difference between the 2 as I understand it is the Max233 doesn't require external capacitors however it definitely is larger in size.

IMHO, since Hugo has modified some sofware to pipe the display over the serial to the display, *ANY* display that can accept serial input can be used. Now, the protocol would have to be changed - that is, how to represent on/off bits over the serial port (or On/Dim2/Dim1/Off; etc) would just have to be changed.

Would the software have to be modified if the only thing that changes is the size of the display. If it has to be modified, is that something that is trivial (because I know it isn't trivial to me)

Yeah. It's a 20 pin DIL instead of the 16 pin DIL that the MAX232 comes in.

- Trevor

The protocol that you need to drive the display isn't very complicated. The datasheet on the Noritake-Itron site tells you exectly what you need to do. Somebody could easily write a user app that uses grabs the display ever so often and outputs it to the serial display.

- Trevor

Unless you want the visuals, you can get the most of it from /proc/empeg_notify

The visuals and Hijack menus are all "displayed" in /proc/empeg_screen.raw, which is simply a bitmap copy of the display. Also, /proc/empeg_screen.png is a halfsize (approx) .png (1124 bytes) compression of the .raw display.

-ml

Using this approach it should be reasonably easy to also make a TV out board, using a fast PIC (with enough RAM) and a small DAC. Only need to know the format the data is sent in...

Stig

Hokay..
Now, I'm not that great at programming.. what little I know I've taught myself. (C, mostly.)
I love logic problems, tho. Muahaha.
Looking at the spec-sheet for the VFD, it's wouldn't be that hard at all to send the display to the VFD (heck, Hugo said he already did it.)
The only problem with a 'live' screen would be the fact that we're sending data over a serial port. Un-optimized, each screen of data would require:
6bytes x 4 (setting up each 8px line of graphics), then
128bytes x 4 (each of the four lines)..
That's 536bytes for a screen. Then you have to wait for the displays PSU (which, according to spec is 50usec + (5msec * # data bits)..

So, a realtime display prolly won't be easy to do. But, you could probably get close.
The kicker is to:
1. Send data to the screen and not overload the screen's buffer/PSU.
2. Use smart encoding in the program to skip all blank screenbits and just position the cursor at the next screen bit with a pixel on.
3. Somehow convert the raw PNG data into mapped 1x8 squares. (I'm not too good with the low-level operations of graphics. This one challenges me the most.)

(Of course, with what I wanted the display for was simple track info - The usual - name, artist, year, album, etc etc. I don't need hypnotizing visuals right in front of my face in Atlanta traffic. Heh.) I like the fact that I can program in sprites (user icons) and use them like standard characters. So maybe I can have the playlist or something listed as a title, or such.) I am really impressed with the display, tho. This company seems to have their stuff together..

Me.

Hmm.. that will make it much easier. I'm not really worrying about size (I can fit the small converter board behind the radio..)
Looking at the 233 now. Looks pretty simple to hookup. Since I don't need any of the fancy stuff, I'm guessing that I'll only need pins:
4, 19: RS232 input from the Empeg
3, 20: TTL output to display.
6, 9: GND
7: +5V.

The PCB board will also have to have the VR (I'll need to refresh my memory on the regulators..) and a connector to take the data lines and the +5 to the VFD, and a RS232 connector to go over to the Empeg...
Ooh, I'm likin' this.

Thanks, Hugo, for finding this. :>
Me.

Coolio, thanks for the info Altman... I must talk to an engineering friend of mine to piece together one of these meters.

Please keep us informed if you do ever get someone else to sell them, I know a couple of people that would be very keen on getting their hands one one

it does look pretty straightforward to put together your own "track info" mode to display on one of these. the trick, though, would be how you handling the menuing system. if you don't replicate the existing display as-is, then you won't have an easy way to access menus and get visual feedback.

if you could find a way to display menus and track data, then i think you'd be all set.

--dan.

In reply to:

---

While we're on the subject of -escent paint jobs, who else has seen the iridescent paint on some new TVRs? I saw one that looked iridescent gold coming towards you but turned to iridescent purple as it went past. Crazy stuff.

---

These are also known as 'flip' paint jobs, because they flip colour depending on what angle you look at them. Not a big fan myself, mainly because I've never seen a nice combination - they always seem to dirty colours to me, and make TVRs look even more like turds than they do already (IMO!)

They becoming more popular with the (richer) boyracer crowd too - seen a Lexus and a Ford Probe with a similar effect. Personally I think it could look really good with something like a Silver going to Midnight Blue, but I've never seen anything so nice - maybe it's not feasible.

This seems a little overpriced. The display is the same size as a sideon view of a matchbox, and it costs 70 quid. Yet the full empeg display only costs 100 quid to replace.

Not really - big electronics are cheaper than small electronics.

Probably like most other items, there is a set cost for the packaging - the electronics, glass, processing, etc. It doesn't matter as much how big it is, as long as it still uses the same manufacturing process.

I had an old audi that was almost a flip paint job only worked when clean went from metallic silver to a light blue

I don't think my mods to the software will necessarily end up in future versions. Really, the best place for a display hack like this is in the kernel as then it'd work with all apps (inc GPS, etc).

Hugo

The small display isn't scanned though, it's phosphor on silicon. It's also about 6x brighter than the empeg display for just this reason (the module has a brightness control; FYI, the pictures are with the brightness set to level 2 (of 7), but there's no filter in front of the screen at the moment.

The empeg display glass alone costs around 40-50 quid in small quantities. This is a module including PSU (it still needs something like 50v to light stuff up), controller, etc.

Hugo

If you want a real easy solution for TTL->RS232 level conversion check out this product. I used it for doing conversion in my Oncore GPS board and it worked great, didn't even have to solder I just stripped the wires and twisted them together. I recommened this to all beginners and non-soldering people (like myself).

Hmm.. Interesting little toy, thanks.
I think I'll stick with making a small board, mostly because: 1. I almost have it finished, and 2. The display needs 5V, which I can put on the same board so it does everything..

Me.

Any chance of someone putting a step by step assembly instruction together ?

Is it really as simple as connecting serial port - TTL convertor - VFD ? With some soldering / splicing to hang it all together ?

In reply to:

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Any chance of someone putting a step by step assembly instruction together ?

Is it really as simple as connecting serial port - TTL convertor - VFD ? With some soldering / splicing to hang it all together ?

---

Basically, yeah. I'm making a PCB that will take care of some of the annoyances, but yeah. Empeg -> TTL converter -> VFD.

The main 'annoyance' is the header on the VFD for communications is a ribbon cable header, 10-pin. It carries everything needed - including the +5v.

Me.

Altman-

Just wondering if you have completed the install for this remote display (display repeater).

And, can you list ALL parts (part #s), and place(s) to order from to accomplish this? (i.e. the voltage pieces, serial adapters, whatever it takes)
(i can solder and build circuits, as long as i have schematics/diagrams and some instructions)


And, instead of the 128x32, can other sizes of displays from this same Itron company work?

thanks.

And, instead of the 128x32

And, can I get a pony?

And, can I get a pony?

Come on, be nice to the new guys.

Come on, be nice to the new guys.

Um. Why should they be special?

instead of the 128x32, can other sizes of displays from this same Itron company work?

Instead of being snarky, I'll try to answer your question.

Probably not. The empeg's display and native and only format is 128x32. While you could conceivably use a differently sized display, you'd have to map 128x32 pixels to it, so that seems a little useless.

In addition, Hugo (altman) is one of the original developers of the empeg and he's modifying the player software to drive it. It's probably unlikely that it will get released as he has developed it, and we, the empeg-using public, do not have the requisite access to the player software to reproduce it. At the very least, I wouldn't hold my breath. So any thought of getting it to work quickly just by using his software is probably not realistic.

There are some other folks that are attempting similar things inspired by Hugo's repeater. You might want to take a look around in the programming and technical forums for information. (I forget who they are or what the thread titles would be; sorry.) They haven't publicly gotten too far, though.

Noritake has lots of other serial displays that are 128x32 or higher.. Since we're writing the software to drive them the Empeg display could be integer scaled (for example one nice display is 256x64 and would fit right in a DIN slot), or you could display other info on the extra pieces of display, like say GPSApp (slightly modified), without interfering with your view of the Player. Going to a smaller res obviously has issues with what you want to crop off.

The two of particular interest to me (I got one of each) are the 140x32 7000-series and the 256x64 3100-series (specifically the D model is the one that is DIN-sized. The 3100s have apparently been replaced by 3900s that aren't much different, but their site isn't updated to reflect it.

The threads of interest are in Projects, Backlit Display and Project: External VFD Display.

If you're interested in hiding your Empeg in the trunk (my goal) I've also put together a serial controller with a Grayhill joystick that has all 7 actions on one stick (no direct link, go to grayhill.com and enter part number 60A). Eventually I'll have software ready to run that other people could use and write drivers for other displays. foxtrot_xray is working on his own software too for his 128x32.

Noble *spent*

Can I have a go when you get it???