The problem with that, and this is the same argument I've used against private school vouchers, is that the education of American children does much more than simply educate the children. It props up the infrastructure of the country. As Lectric said, if it wasn't required, then we would have more idiots out roaming around than we do now, and that would be bad for the country.

Of course, that doesn't help solve the problem. While I dislike the whole private school voucher thing, mostly because it doesn't actually help the children who would most benefit from it, maybe some sort of remuneration for good schoolwork would help. That is, give bonuses to teachers and principals whose students do well, which would encourage them to be more than babysitters.

I don't really know. I've never been in a school where learning didn't occur, but, then, I was always in the advanced classes. I suppose that the children who would really benefit are the seemingly average ones who would actually want to learn if they had the opportunity.

However, overall I'd say that our educational system has devolved into nothing more than daycare.

One of the greatest things about American Education also plants the seeds for its downfall, and that is, everybody is entitled to a free education through the 12th grade. Unfortunately, whoever makes the "rules" went (IMHO) a step too far and decided that not only is everybody entitled, but they are required to partake of this education, at least through the age of 16.

Bah. I don't believe that for a second. You have the same thing in Canada -- a system that requires everyone under 16 to be in school, getting a free education, and it certainly hasn't devolved into a daycare. Sure, there are kids there that don't want to be there, but even in the basic level classes I took, kids that just goofed off got kicked out of class. Kids that didn't want to be there played hookey, and, quite often, repeated a few classes. If you don't know the required material, you failed.

My neighbour spent the last few years teaching public school (in Compton, no less). I took a look at the report cards that he's using, and it's pathetic. Where are the grades? There was far more emphasis on "does he play nice with others," and "is she trying hard," than there appeared to be on actual grades. He had kids passing grade 4 based on the fact that they put in effort, not because they learned the material.

When a teacher at a school in New York isn't allowed to punish a student that swears at her, let alone have him removed from class, because there's a policy in place that says "we don't punish the students," there's something far more seriously wrong with the system than just requiring kids to be in until they're 16. What do you expect a system to turn into when parents show up at a school with lawyers? "My kid isn't learning, so I'm going to sue you." "Okay, your kid passes, because I don't want to be sued."

Blame it on society, blame it on the kids, whatever -- but it sure ain't the fault of the system for requiring a kid be in school.

The problem is that sometimes there's a fine line to walk. Do you fail kids all the time and discourage them enough to make them drop out of school, or do you pass them up through the grades and hope something sinks in, despite them not knowing it all? I don't like either choice, but I'd lean towards the latter. It sounds like the case you're talking about is a bit extreme in the passing area.

I think in cases like the ones you mention (instances when you "don't punish the students"), it truly is daycare - keeping the troubled kids off the street.

As for that suing example, I think we can all agree that that is messed up, but I don't think that's common. I went to what a lot of people considered an "affluent" high school, and we never had anything near that stupid done by the parents. Although, we did have parents of kids in band who thought their child should have been principle chair simply because they were their child. Some people are just whiny brats, I suppose

Write to UPS, tell them that said package was NEVER received.

Once they they dig up paperwork to the contrary, it should also show that you collected the package and therefore paid for it up front..

-ml

When I was 9 years of age, our family relocated to Montreal, where, after three earlier years in a very strict traditional schoolroom, I was placed in a "free form" experimental school. Few formal classes, no walls, lots of toys, lots of playing, and the odd "gather round the table" session with a teacher.

Three years later, we moved back to New Brunswick, where I re-entered the traditional school system, and the teachers were at a loss as to how to place me. My french was, of course, good. Math scores were through the roof, and my reading level was off the chart. But geography, history, and other memorization subjects were merely average.

I still don't really understand how that happened.

But due to my reading scores, I got bumped into an advanced English Lit course, bypassing the English grammer teaching that the others were all getting. As as result, I missed out on the only chance I ever had to done good for grammer.

But somehow along the way, I did pick up acceptable grammer; most likely from reading.

Cheers

not only is everybody entitled, but they are required to partake of this education, at least through the age of 16.

The kid doesn't have much of a choice, but a parent can take their kid out of school. Ever heard of home schooling?

not only is everybody entitled, but they are required to partake of this education, at least through the age of 16.

The kid doesn't have much of a choice, but a parent can take their kid out of school. Ever heard of home schooling?

Yes, but I think what tanstaafl was getting at is that a child is required to be in education until 16 years old. Whether the parent(s) decide to use the public school system, or home schooled, or sent to a private school doesn't matter -- the one option a parent does not legally have is to withdraw their child from all systems of education.

Besides, I'll wager that in 99.9% of the cases where a child is failing from school, it's the parents that are to blame. I see it all the time. My X-g/f works in a category 1 school, the lowest of the low grade-wise. They are generally from poor parents who had the children simply to collect more money from the government. There was even a case I know of where a parent wanted their girl classified as learning disabled, so they could get more money. I'm sorry, but that's some sick #$%^.

I did pick up acceptable grammer

But not acceptable speling, I see.