Please don't take my guns away. I like them. So far I've not shot anyone.

However, if I really wanted to kill someone and they took my guns, I'd find a way (people always have).

Face it, the gun control problem will not be solved on this BBS.

I'm sorry I started the discussion, I was just shocked to discover the number of gun shot deaths in the US compared to everywhere else in the world.

Why would you be sorry? A good debate every now and again is always a good thing. The more ideas people hear, the less likely they are to be misled by a bad one they heard once. Besides, arguing is fun!

Why would you be sorry

Because this subject has to be one of the most polarised out there, people are rarely going to switch opinon from "the general availability of guns is evil" to "the general availability of guns is good" (or the other way around) by just talking about it.

Besides, arguing is fun!

I'm not sure arguing is much fun when both sides have such entrenched positions...

I for one love to hear opposing views because if you don't feel strongly one way or the other it makes for very interesting reading.

Oh, I am in the UK and own a real AR-15 and a Sterling L2A3 - ok they were cut up and welded back together but they look real nice! The actions work to some extent, but if you want noise you have to get a blank firer (like my Beretta 92F - looks and sounds like the real thing, not that I've heard the real thing though)

The laws however are such that even though they are not firearms if you used them (or even a gun shaped piece of wood) in a way that somebody believed it was a firearm, it *is* are firearm for the purposes of law. Even stun-guns/tazers are firearms in the UK and are illegal - very silly considering people go to France and bring them back all the time - you are highly unlikely to get caught by customs.

Gareth

My first thought was that it must have to do with the population difference, so I went after
actual ratios

NAME LAND AREA POPULATION MURDER RATIO
Austria 83,858 8,169,929 65 7.9e-6
Canada 9,976,140 31,902,268 165 5.17e-6
France 547,030 59,765,983 255 4.225e-6
United 244,820 59,778,002 68 1.137e-6
Germany 357,021 83,251,851 381 4.57e-6
Japan Tokyo 377,835 126,974,628 39 3.07e-7
United States 9,629,091 280,562,489 11127 3.96e-5

Then I thought to look over 'general' murder rates.

Minimum murder rate in Canada in 2001 663 (2.08 per 100k) (taken from murder rate in BC which
was the lowest of all provinces and territories)

murder rate in USA in 2002 (7.6 per 100k)


I found this site: http://www.fadetoblack.com/bestcountry/best1.htm

I guess we do murder better than anyone! I wonder if any of it has to do with imigration rates
or... I dunno.

The humane in me says, "It's a little sad."
The environmentalist says "Population control."
The Cowboy in me says "Time to get me a better gun to deal with all those nutz out there."

But most of me wants to get off this crazy planet. I'm convinced the only way to save it is
to get rid of 50+% of the population. To do something like that is madness in human terms, but
without radical steps we're all f**ked.

Someone needs a trip in the total perspective vortex.

Perkins.....

Perkins used to have a 'no gun' policy. Someone came into Perkins and pulled a gun, shot one of the waitresses and a customer. 2 other customers pulled concealed weapons a killed him.

Perkins no longer has a no-gun policy.

Oh, I am in the UK and own a real AR-15 and a Sterling L2A3

How do you like your AR? Two of my friends each have an AR-15, it is a pleasure to fire them. If you have them available, get some NATO rounds - they provide for much more kick, and they do a good number on a water jug filled with water. Very accurate once sights are adjusted.

Better yet !!!

Freeze a five gallon bucket of water. Dump the ice out and put in on a stump.

Talk about a cool way to make a snow cone.

And it makes it bloody near impossible for me to own a (replica) musket to shoot pretend musket balls at a Royalist foe who died 350 years ago, to ensure the existence of a non-monarchist controlled Parliament, the only true bequest that British culture has gifted to the world.

--and I can't shoot the f****** cat that keeps crapping in my bushes, the b******

How do you like your AR?

er... I think you missed the next bit which mentioned they are welded up (ie. deactivated) :-( No licence required though. I could probably get a licence since I live in the countryside but my mum probably wouldn't like it!

Gareth
PS. It's mounted in a 9C1 Chevy Caprice - I need a Remington 870 to mount in the trunk lid next!

What's scary is firing safety slugs into a jug filled with gelatin. That way you can see the damage trails.

the only true bequest that British culture has gifted to the world.

Rob, that is *horribly* unfair!

What about Posh Spice??


--and I can't shoot the f****** cat that keeps crapping in my bushes, the b******

Why so frustrated? I've always found that poison-tipped blowdarts do the job and are *much* more discreet!

Well Jonathon Woss on Film 2002 has just given this film open-mouthed approval "Inspired and Inspiring". I for one will go an see it.

Well, yeah, there is David Beckham and Lady Di, I suppose..... (not)

Curious you should mention this - there is currently a series of progs on BBC going through the 10 Greatest Britons. At the moment, Winston Churchill, Oliver Cromwell and William Shakespear are....

... less popular than Lady Di, the "Queen of Hearts". Dare I say at the risk of public assassination for sacriledge, WTF????

It would probably read better if I wasn't p****** drunk and I had a spell checker.... What is this bloody world coming too....

In reply to:

---

At the moment, Winston Churchill, Oliver Cromwell and William Shakespear are....

... less popular than Lady Di, the "Queen of Hearts".

Dare I say at the risk of public assassination for sacriledge, WTF????

---

Well, what have those other 9 done for the world **recently**?

Lady Di's legacy is giving us wonderful entainment in the form of "What the Butler saw".

It would probably read better if I wasn't p****** drunk and I had a spell checker.... What is this bloody world coming too....

Really, I mean not allowing drunks to have spell checkers, c'mon!

if the reports are correct about the ratio of reported rapes to actual rapes that means one in every 80 US women and one in every 500 UK women are being raped each year, which is absolutely awful if it is true. We call ourselves civilized countries.

I find this scarier:

One out of every six women in American has been a victim of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. About 62% of rape victims knew their assailant.

Y'know, I was going to write up a long rebuttal

I'm not sure what you were going to rebut. My post doesn't seem to be an advocate for gun-control -- if so, sorry, I was just trying to point out a difference in attitude that I've noticed. Personally, I like guns. I like their design, I like the smell of gunpowder, I like the heft of a gun in my hands (I've only ever shot rifles). I'm not so naive as to think that gun-control is the panacea that will save the US from itself -- that's no more true than it is that youth violence in the US is due to Marylin Manson, violent video games, sex on TV, the news, or any of the other popular things the right/left/middle wing is going to try banning next. Other countries have the same, some to an even greater extent than the US.

It's kind of funny... the first link I clicked on ("Assault Weapons by Hugh Downs") in that first link you gave had this to say:
Firearms, in whatever numbers or whatever configurations, are not the problem. The problem would seem to have its roots in national attitudes we have toward correcting things. Where did we develop the idea that personal grievances or social wrongs can be redressed by shooting the bad guy?[...]The assault rifle debate takes our attention away from the underlying problem: how to effect a change in our national attitude toward settling differences by violence.

It echos my sentiments quite well, if not much more eloquently. Unfortunately, the attitude is so pervasive that few people even notice that it's there. One of the saddest ironies of Bowling for Columbine film was when Moore was talking to a Lockheed-Martin PR lackey. Moore asked if part of the culpability for the shootings might belong to companies like LM that implicitly foster the attitude that it's okay to resolve your problems by killing people. The response was something along the lines of "Well... when you're mad at someone, you don't just go killing them. You talk things over and come to a resolution. It's not like America goes firing missiles at other countries every time we get mad at them." Hmmm....

Cheers,

a Royalist foe who died 350 years ago, to ensure the existence of a non-monarchist controlled Parliament

Pah! And your Cromwellian rabble lasted how long before the House of Stuart had to come back and sort the mess out? Eleven years! Central American countries have had stronger regimes than that!

Face it, you Roundheads may have won the war but you lost the battle...

The one thing worst than a hereditary autocratic monarchy, turned out to be a hereditary autocratic monarchy which didn't even admit to being one...

Peter

CanuckInLA,

I learned the basics of defensive shooting in several classes taught by an Indy deputy sheriff (ok, Marion County to be precise). I've done a lot of reading (and thinking) on the subject, and I wish more people did. This type of thinking dictates that the gun's only drawn as the last measure to protect your life. I also wish more people would take the police-taught classes. I believe the solution lies more in this kind of education direction than in further bans and restrictions, but that is the road we've been heading down ever since prohibition. (Actually earlier than that, wasn't there a federal act before the 1934 one, or was that the first one?)

So yeah, the gun owners can be somewhat scared. They're scared of the future regulations that will be slapped on them, especially in the wake of this fake "war on terror" (more like "war on rights/blow up the countries standing between us and *our* oil" to me). So when they see a movie that a lay-person (re: moronic politicians) may interpret as "we need more gun control in this country", they're likely to not react too positively.

I personally believe the high number of gun-related deaths is due to the narcotics problem. (The problem being the prohibition.) Every policeman I have spoken with personally has said the same thing - the overwhelming problem right now is violence attributed with dealing illegal substances. Not with the substances themselves, mind you, just the fact that they are illegal. Curing drug addiction is a social health problem, not a criminal one. The deaths won't stop until we reverse our national policy on this issue and do away with the black market demand by doing away with the Illegal Substances Act of 1996. (Which was just as horriblely written piece of legislation crap as the Patriot Act and the DMCA.)

Your comments have at least made me want to watch the movie now. My original comments were based soley from the web page. (I really don't think the number is as high as 11k, but I'm still digging for crime stats from last year.) I'll try to see it with an open mind, but every time I've seen Moore interviewed on TV he always has come across as a Socialistic anti-gun person to me. (I seriously have to question the reasoning of someone who takes such a strong "the rich need to be taxed even more" position, but that is an entirely different discussion!)

My personal thesis is that we're not going to see any real infusion of sanity into this country until we elect a Libertarian president, but I recognize that I'm in a very small minority on that one. Harry Browne would not be preparing to anihilate Iraq right now, and I'd even argue that having a Libertarian in the office in 2k might have prevented the outcome of last Sept.'s events.

(How's that for a closer?)

- Rick

crime and accident statistics. According to the accident stats, there were 10,828 firearm homicides in 1999, and 16,599 firearm suicides in 1999. There were also 13,162 accidental deaths from people falling. And there were 2,391,399 total deaths in the US in 1999.

There were also 13,162 accidental deaths from people falling.


Thanks for reminding me...I need to renew my subscription to the anti-ladder league.

I need to renew my subscription to the anti-ladder league

You'd probably be surprised just how many people die each year from falling off a ladder. It's a huge amount.
I myself know three people that died that way. Every time the same thing : a wooden ladder that broke under their weight (because the ladder was kept in a humid shed in the garden instead of a dry garage)
You'll never see me standing on a wooden ladder. If I must do it, I'll use an aluminum one.

Ted Nugent ofr PRESIDENT!

http://www.edromanguitars.com/rock/nugent.htm

If he'd only switch....

http://www.modempool.com/nucleardann/ted.htm

Kill 'em all...... No, wait, Metallca for pres????

http://www.off-road.com/dunes/nuge/bio.html

Just to go wildly OT... How do you watch the BBC in Amersfoort? Do you get Sky Digital? Or is it on BBC Prime or World or something?

you said it.

To those that haven't seen the film, shut up about it and Moore until you have. As has been stated, it's about why the US has such a problem with firearms, not about getting rid of them... which i was pleasently surprised to discover.

As has been stated, it's about why the US has such a problem with firearms, not about getting rid of them... which i was pleasently surprised to discover.

You and me both. I hadn't actually heard of Moore until I went to see the movie on a last minute invitation. Somebody in the group mentioned that he was an NRA member, so I was expecting something *completely* different from what I got -- I was expecting some stark raving mad Heston-isms.

I learned the basics of defensive shooting in several classes taught by an Indy deputy sheriff (ok, Marion County to be precise). I've done a lot of reading (and thinking) on the subject, and I wish more people did. This type of thinking dictates that the gun's only drawn as the last measure to protect your life. I also wish more people would take the police-taught classes.

This is the biggest reason why I think gun control is actually a *good* thing -- because most people *don't* take those classes. It's not people like you that I'm so worried about, the ones that have gone out and done their homework. I admit to being a little leery of people like d33zy owning a gun, given some of the inflammatory things he's done in the past. I'm even more leery of the wackos out there that make one absolutely petrified at the thought of them owning a gun (and there seems to be a high correlation between the wackos and membership in militia groups). But at least the wackos know how to use the weapons -- the scariest are the people packing guns that don't know how to use them!

When I say "gun control", what I'd like to see is government regulations requiring (hand) gun owners to a) have registration, b) take some form of those defense/safety classes you mention, and c) train regularly. Of course, those three things need to be overseen by a body independant of the government. I'm less concerned about (a), than I am about (b) and (c). Beyond that, no further restrictions than now (well... except for the assault rifle thing -- it's claimed they have a legit use for hunting, but let's be honest... if you're such a bad hunter that you need an assault rifle to kill your prey, maybe you ought to take up gardening.)

this fake "war on terror" (more like "war on rights/blow up the countries standing between us and *our* oil" to me).

Preacher, meet the choir.

I personally believe the high number of gun-related deaths is due to the narcotics problem. (The problem being the prohibition.)

That, I can agree with. I'm curious to know the percentage of gun deaths that are drug related, and to compare that percentage to the same stats of other countries.

Your comments have at least made me want to watch the movie now.

Yay. Of course, for all my comments, the movie *does* have a bias to it, and Moore does, at times, conveniently forget to tell the entire story. However, if it make you think for a bit, that's a good thing.

he always has come across as a Socialistic anti-gun person

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a bit of Socialism -- I'd like to know that I'll have a decent standard of health care when I'm old and decrepit.

The Dutch cable companies (or some of them at least) carry BBC1, BBC2 and BBC World. I saw them on cable when I was staying in Amsterdam recently.